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Image for I'm proud to be Libra's girl

I'm proud to be Libra's girl

The Melbourne drag queen who stars in Libra’s controversial tampon ad – which has now been yanked off TV screens – says she never intended to portray a transwoman and will not apologise for the resulting storm.

Shown below, the commercial’s portrayal of a tall partygirl’s bathroom battle with a ‘real woman’ who uses tampons prompted stern criticism from many transgender people who were disgusted at being seen as figures of fun.

“The blatant transphobia is disgusting,” read one of many online comments blasting the promotion. “This ad is ridiculous and offensive.” An online petition ensued, attracting almost 2,000 signatories this week.

The company itself quickly responded. “Libra regrets any offence taken to our recent tampon advertisement,” it said. “It was never intended to upset or offend anyone. Independent research was undertaken and the advertisement was viewed positively during that testing.

“Libra takes all feedback very seriously, and in response to this, we will immediately review our future position with this campaign based on the feedback received. There are no further advertisements scheduled in New Zealand. The advertisement has not aired in Australia.”

Now Melbourne drag queen Sandee Crack has spoken up, saying she was proud of the Libra ad and is disappointed by the resulting controversy. She tells her side of the story, hitting back at her critics, below…


My name is Sandee Crack. I am the drag queen that you have all seen in the Libra commercial that has been shot down by some of the transgender community.

I would firstly like to state that I am in fact a gay man that dresses in drag as a performer. I have been doing so for many years and will continue to do so. I have never considered myself to be transgendered and never will do.

When I was presented with the Libra commercial and saw it as a great opportunity to participate in a positive step towards acceptance for drag queens and gay men among the wider community.

Libra were both sensitive, professional and accepting of my needs as a drag queen and as a gay man throughout the production process. I never felt for one moment that I would be depicted as a trans woman, nor do I believe that I have been.

We consciously kept my arm hair, chose strapless dresses to accentuate my broad shoulders and if you look carefully you will notice my stubble is slightly visible. They also ensured I looked much taller than the girl next to me.

I was shown the ad prior to release and I was thrilled with it. I have received enormous support from both transgendered, gay and straight individuals from all over the world since the ad was released in New Zealand. I believe strongly that by putting a drag queen into the mainstream media, we are one step closer to acceptance and this is something I am very proud to be part of.

Unfortunately, a small portion of the trans community have chosen to view the ad as a personal attack on their fight to be viewed as equal women within society. This is a fight I also feel strongly about and I hope to help educate the wider community on.

However, I feel hurt that representing myself as a drag queen on television and playing out a common place scenario in my life has lead to a clear “Dragphobia” among some transgendered individuals who wish to pull the plug on something that reflects true honesty about the life of a drag queen. A drag queen is a man in women’s clothing and if that offends a trans woman I am afraid I cannot apologise, as by doing so I am apologising for being me.

I hope that the campaign goes to air in Australia, it would be an enormous step forward for Australia and for the world.

Thank you

Sandee Crack

Social

Comments

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26305
T-Boy

T-Boy said on the 6th Jan, 2012

Oh sorry I thought you were quoting something.

I agree the experiences of trans guys and girls differ.

Im not getting into an argument about who has more or less privilige :)

I don't know, I just like to come to queer sites for allies, not attack them like enemies. Sure, they may not know how hurtful their words are, but if someone hurts me out of ignorance then I take it as an opportunity to set them straight. (no pun intended)

Unless I'm feeling particularly crabby or set upon of course. :) Then my claws come out.

MrAsh

MrAsh said on the 6th Jan, 2012

words "we" don't like

trannie, tranny, shemale, shim, he/she, it, transgenerism, transgenderist, gender bender, Twanz, freak, i am sure there are more.

I deliberately refer to Tora Hymen as 'That' and 'It' for this reason. For Drag Queens putting on lippy and a frock is easy as taking them off and reverting back to their own gender roles. They don't have to endure the discrimination 24/7. Yet a lot of them whinge and complain about the harrassement they receive in the few hours they are in their drag persona like they are on the receiving end of endless discrimination, yet see them down Woolworths in their singlet, shorts and thongs and no one would blink at them. Yet get a transgender/noncis/intersex/gender diverse person out and about living their normal lives and they get the stares, looks, remarks, instrusive questions etc... constantly.

EvilEmpress

EvilEmpress said on the 6th Jan, 2012

T-Boy, I like making allies too. We have been trying to set people on the correct road to being good allies but so many are just not interested in trying. I am thankful for the ones I have but it barely scratches the surface of what needs to be done to make progress for us.

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 6th Jan, 2012

I dont think anyone deserves to be called it, I have been on the other end of "it: Doesn't get anymore dehumanising.

MrAsh

MrAsh said on the 6th Jan, 2012



Surprisingly I've been called 'it' as well and you're right it is very dehumanising.

Asherbella

Asherbella said on the 6th Jan, 2012

We should be referred to the gender we identify as.
We all walk the Earth with the right to feel, and be, safe.
Do no harm.
Live in the moment.
Smile when you can, cry when you need to.
Listen.
Hold your head high.
Respect yourself.

Asherbella

Asherbella said on the 6th Jan, 2012

Anyone who can afford that much make up or has the opportunity to audition for a commercial is fortunate

Anyone who undergoes counselling, gender re-assignment, hormone therapy, corrective surgery, faces harrassment, condescending curiosity, gets bashed, spat on, hate pages on facebook, academic argument ad nauseum, feels marginalised; is marginalised is not fortunate.
Can we at least agree on this?
I'm searching for all of us to meet on common ground.
Dolly Parton said something like,"It takes a whole lot of money to look this cheap". Transgendered persons are made to feel cheap, while some drag queens, out of parody or self interest, revel in looking cheap. For this they want what, exactly? To get paid. Do transgendered persons want to get paid for merely being themselves? No.

Asherbella

Asherbella said on the 6th Jan, 2012

It seems like some drag queens want to look more attractive than the women they are not attracted to so they can appear to be more physically attractive to the men that will never want them.
I like the drag queens who dress in drag for sheer enjoyment who are humble enough to perform out of a sense of community rather than self.

EvilEmpress

EvilEmpress said on the 7th Jan, 2012

I really appreciate your comments, Asherbella. You are insightful and your concern is admirable and it is terrific that you strive to do right.

Asherbella

Asherbella said on the 7th Jan, 2012

Thanks. Too many times I've seen good drag queens start out and be consumed by their drag queen persona that they forget who they are as a person. They become the character they're not. They become enveloped and bound by their reflection in the mirror and it becomes all about the glamour and not about the gay community. They simply lose themselves. There becomes an imbalance. Then you get narcisistic asides and competitiveness and discussions about who is lending which pair of heels to whom becomes an argument about which drag queen mimed the same song better than the drag queen that 'stole' *their* routine. It all becomes convoluted and sad. The drag queens of the late '90's and early 2000's were friendly, beautifully arranged, civilised and there was a sense of community. The up and coming drag queens seem to take their drag for granted; as if they're fighting for a cause they don't really know about.. I don't know. Maybe I'm out of touch. Ah, well. It's hard work being a drag queen and a passion - not a labourious task - but an honour. Some young drag queens get lead astray by the 'promise' of 'making it big'. Peace. xxx

nickdisco

nickdisco said on the 7th Jan, 2012

Honestly this debacle probably could have been avoided by using a more Drag Queeny Drag Queen.

I think the Crackster was too plain and regular looking.

Not that transfolk are plain but a drag queen especially a drag queen for television should be more OTT.

It has raised some interesting issues within the LGBTIQ though.

The lack of support from the LGB is mind blowing..

MrAsh

MrAsh said on the 7th Jan, 2012

It's interesting to see how many gay guys are dissing the concerns and complaints from the transgender/NonCIS/Intersex/Gender diverse community and women as P.C. whinging and telling them to lighten up.

I think this has really raised an issue about the attitudes of gay men and from this I am really starting to think that LGBTIQ should start to splinter for their own good. In my view each group is different, as is the focus of each group.

I doubt the dominate Gay and Lesbian part of LGBTIQ really do give a genuine concern about the rest. The only reason they have the rest on board is to bolster support for their own cause. I would even say gay men aren't really that concerned about Lesbians and if they didn't have to have lesbians involved, they wouldn't.

Nevarro

Nevarro said on the 7th Jan, 2012

Nevarro, what gives you the right to make any comment about my well being? You have no idea what kind of trauma I have experienced, what kind of justifiable phobias I have developed and what kind of mental illnesses I suffer from for growing up trans. If I feel at all unsafe by those words then it IS an ATTACK. Fuck you very much for telling me that it is not.

Furthermore, Irene does NOT make a good point in that most people are curious. Most people are fearful and hostile. You do not have the personal experience in dealing with it to advise otherwise or correct me and invalidate MY experiences for being victimised and vilified. Once again, fuck you.

EvilEmpress, so now you feel it appropriate to attack me? How charming.
How are you any better than those of which you speak of that have/do attack you?
I have not attacked you here or anywhere on this site or anywhere else for that matter.
Your attitude is unfortunate.

Perhaps I don't know your personal story, the history of your childhood into adulthood, what you have experienced in your time.
I am sorry that the world is not as nice to you as you so obviously feel it is to me.

You have misinterpreted my post, which is also unfortunate.

I could choose to be offended by your response, I could feel attacked and victimised by your horrible behaviour but I choose not to be, its simply not worth it as to take that path could impact my mental wellbeing.
Instead I choose not to absorb your hateful and negative tone.
You are possibly angry, well that is how I interpret your reaction but it in no way justifies you attacking someone.


I hope that you find peace some day, that you find a way to work through your anger and hurt, and if as you say, you suffer from a mental illness as a result of growing up trans that you are seeking the help that you need.

I find no joy in seeing people suffer.

I wish you well on your future journey

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 7th Jan, 2012

I think the only way our community can heel is through understanding and acceptance by the wider cis community. Not token acceptance but the sincere kind. I am hoping that after the ugliness dies down that maybe we can exist in a less hostile world. There's is nothing easy about our lives. Its all about compromise and turning thy cheek "you got to pick you're battles girl. Everything seems like a battle in social situations. From the reaction from a community that I belong to and love dearly to be this heart, felt I am hopeful for the future. Sometimes we feel we walk alone.

T-Boy

T-Boy said on the 7th Jan, 2012

It's interesting to see how many gay guys are dissing the concerns and complaints from the transgender/CIS/Intersex/Gender diverse community and women as P.C. whinging and telling them to lighten up.

I think this has really raised an issue about the attitudes of gay men and from this I am really starting to think that LGBTIQ should start to splinter for their own good. In my view each group is different, as is the focus of each group.

I doubt the dominate Gay and Lesbian part of LGBTIQ really do give a genuine concern about the rest. The only reason they have the rest on board is to bolster support for their own cause. I would even say gay men aren't really that concerned about Lesbians and if they didn't have to have lesbians involved, they wouldn't.

I have to say I disagree. I have always found that my home is with my LGBTQ brothers and sisters. Some of them say hurtful things, but then so do I about them sometimes. I know if I were in trouble, I'd look for help from gay men or women than from your average cisgender straighty from the city.

MrAsh

MrAsh said on the 7th Jan, 2012



You may see your home with LBTIQ brothers and sisters, yet many sadly don't want noncisgendered folk as part of them and in my experience CISgendered gay men can be equally as hateful as hetero CISgender folk and also in some cases more so.

I was heartened though that in the charity competition at Grill'd in Darlinghurst that the Transgender Anti-Violence project did recieve a lot of votes. Yet of course the McGrathFoundation was coming first, which is to be expected since it's a trendy charity at the moment.

Also T-boy, noncisgendered men maybe more accepted by society than noncisgendered women. I think the monologue from the film 'The Concrete Garden' sums the reason why perfectly.

'Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading
But secretly you'd love to know what it's like
Wouldn't you
What it feels like for a girl'

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 7th Jan, 2012

I must say I do love the drive by posting of this article. Comes on starts an account uploads the article closes account and disappears. Oh brilliant. Like a thief in the night and all anonymous like behind a femaile persona. So the only way you can attack woman is to look like one. WHY is that ok with you?

golf clap.

Loser

Asherbella

Asherbella said on the 7th Jan, 2012

Accepting diversity means respecting a person's instrinsic value as a human being.
We are all human first.
We feel.
We think.
We discuss.
We understand.
We sometimes fail to understand.
Defensiveness destroys understanding.
Defensiveness comes from a place of hurt.
Why are you hurting?
Are you misunderstood?
Why embrace hurt and misunderstanding?
Leave politics aside for a moment and ask yourself this question: 'Why do you feel hurt?'

HubbaHubba

HubbaHubba said on the 7th Jan, 2012



yes there are a lot of new profiles lately. I wonder why that might be?

mark_

mark_ said on the 7th Jan, 2012

^
We should be grateful for 'fresh blood'

Beau

Beau said on the 7th Jan, 2012

I thought Lance Leopards panadol ad was gayas.

museboy

museboy said on the 7th Jan, 2012

I have to admit my first reaction (before seeing the ad) was "lighten up", and I groaned reading the various bodies complain about the discrimination etc. But once I saw the ad I thought it was boring as batsh*te and like nickdisco said could have done with a more 'glam' drag queen to be more effective/less offensive.

Reminds me of that Energy Watch ad that was pulled due to complaints about racial stereotyping (white girl saves white couple from dodgy Indian http://mumbrella.com.au/energy-watch-ad-banned-for-racial-stereotyping-54791)

nickdisco

nickdisco said on the 7th Jan, 2012



I would have to disagree that is it is only curiosity.

Many of the transfolk I know received the classic line ' are you sure you're not just gay'

To me that indicates an attitude that in mainstream society it is less "offensive" to be gay than to be transgendered.

mark_

mark_ said on the 7th Jan, 2012



Whatever ever happened to Lance Leopard? He was SO funny! Sometimes Ernie reminds me of the fabulous Lance.

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 7th Jan, 2012

[URL="https://www.facebook.com/anthony.dynon?sk=info"]https://www.facebook.com/anthony.dynon?sk=info Sandee Crack someone posted this on Libra's FB page?

Irene

Irene said on the 8th Jan, 2012

I would have to disagree that is it is only curiosity.

Many of the transfolk I know received the classic line ' are you sure you're not just gay'

To me that indicates an attitude that in mainstream society it is less "offensive" to be gay than to be transgendered.
I think that attitude stems from a lack of understanding of the psychological factors at play. I have suggested in the past that transgendered people, and in particular intersex people need to be more engaged in education of the broader public, to make them more understanding and more aware. But I was shouted down by the angries, just as I have been here. The angry attitude, although understandable, works against them as the public (not me) just sees them as psychos.

Personally, I've never felt particularly female (or particularly male for that matter), just a person born with particular genitalia and a healthy libido. Many of the trappings of gender (clothing etc) are passing social associations and are not intrinsic to the gender they get associated with. I think many people are similar and don't understand the need to change gender - they cannot understand what the fuss is about. And this is where education is so important. Imo, if they want to gain greater acceptance and more tolerance, the transgender community needs to try to understand the broader community and educate, educate, educate.

MrAsh

MrAsh said on the 8th Jan, 2012

I think that attitude stems from a lack of understanding of the psychological factors at play. I have suggested in the past that transgendered people, and in particular intersex people need to be more engaged in education of the broader public, to make them more understanding and more aware. But I was shouted down by the angries, just as I have been here. The angry attitude, although understandable, works against them as the public (not me) just sees them as psychos.

Personally, I've never felt particularly female (or particularly male for that matter), just a person born with particular genitalia and a healthy libido. Many of the trappings of gender (clothing etc) are passing social associations and are not intrinsic to the gender they get associated with. I think many people are similar and don't understand the need to change gender - they cannot understand what the fuss is about. And this is where education is so important. Imo, if they want to gain greater acceptance and more tolerance, the transgender community needs to try to understand the broader community and educate, educate, educate.

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpesdwdiXc1qzu6pho1_500.png


Education is vitally important for the understanding of gender issues and to reduce the predjudice and discrimination surrounding them.

One such education venture is a fanzine called 'Dude' created by (the very handsome) Jez Pez, which in very creative, approachable and matter of fact ways educates people on Transmen's issues.

Irene

Irene said on the 8th Jan, 2012

It wasn't so long ago, and certainly in my memory, that toleration of gays was very very low - punishable by prison in many jurisdictions even in Australia. In the last 30 or 40 years, the situation has improved immeasurably. This isn't something that happened overnight, but was due to the efforts of many in the gay community to educate the public at large. Yes, there's certainly quite some way to go, but compared with 50 years ago - huge steps have been achieved. It wasn't achieved by being angry and playing the victim, but by attempting to understand the heterosexual mindset and educating from there.

MrAsh

MrAsh said on the 8th Jan, 2012

In fairness Irene I do understand where the anger is coming from with the nonCISgendered/intersex folk. Unlike gays and lesbians they do get a double whammy and sometimes triple dose of discrimination. From CISgendered heterosexuals, CISgendered homosexuals etc... also the nonCISgendered females have to deal with misogyny on top of the nonCISgendered orientated discrimination.

Yet you are right in that more education is needed and also stereotypes of nonCISgendered people are needed.

mark_

mark_ said on the 8th Jan, 2012



You are SO right! The change has been amazing. In the 70s the NSW Government took the "Contain and Control" policy to deal with the menace of those sick homosexuals and the prostitutes. I wonder which sick subgroup is next… Druggies? Pedos?

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 8th Jan, 2012

I'm astounded, lmao yes because we never really thought about doing that.

thankyou for you're wise advice.

I think that attitude stems from a lack of understanding of the psychological factors at play. I have suggested in the past that transgendered people, and in particular intersex people need to be more engaged in education of the broader public, to make them more understanding and more aware. But I was shouted down by the angries, just as I have been here. The angry attitude, although understandable, works against them as the public (not me) just sees them as psychos.

Irene

Irene said on the 8th Jan, 2012

Dat, what I'm saying is that it won't happen overnight, and to expect it to, is ridiculously optimistic. It may not even happen in your lifetime. But it will happen, eventually.

HubbaHubba

HubbaHubba said on the 8th Jan, 2012

I asked this before. What does cis mean/stand for?

HubbaHubba

HubbaHubba said on the 8th Jan, 2012

I'm astounded, lmao yes because we never really thought about doing that.

thankyou for you're wise advice.

Actually you have repeatedly said that it's not your job to educate others. Perhaps you should reconsider taking on that responsibility.

Irene

Irene said on the 8th Jan, 2012

Yes I blocked you because my eyes were beginning to bleed. How incredibly self righteous you are.
.....................
On another issue, its not up to you to release such information to the public, especially in a drunken state as you turned something like an official media release into a joke. As it is not up to you to tell us, how we should feel about it.
.....................
We thank you for you're input, now we just want you to pretty much butt right out.


While the above may be an outlet for your anger, it really doesn't help your cause. If someone sent me that (in whatever context) it wouldn't help me understand anything; I'd just think you were loopy. In fact, it may even have the effect of turning someone who was neutral into a phobic. As I said, education is the answer - not abusive anger.

MrAsh

MrAsh said on the 8th Jan, 2012



I posted a Wikipedia link already for you in an earlier comment.

HubbaHubba

HubbaHubba said on the 8th Jan, 2012

I can't find that earlier comment. Do u have the link here? I'm just on my mobile so tricky to navigate all these forums.

HubbaHubba

HubbaHubba said on the 8th Jan, 2012



I agree. I've been lurking for quite sometime and datkindagsl comes across as extremely angry, emotionally unstable and inconsistent. Perhaps it might be best for some other transperson to take the reigns. Someone who has some better communication skills and can reach the people who need converting to the cause.

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 8th Jan, 2012

lurking, what 5 minutes and 15 posts. So you are simply going to dismiss our concerns buy labelling me (oh and many others)emotionally unstable.

Again cissexism, conveniant

HubbaHubba

HubbaHubba said on the 8th Jan, 2012

lurking, what 5 minutes and 15 posts. So you are simply going to dismiss our concerns buy labelling me (oh and many others)emotionally unstable.

Again cissexism, conveniant

not all trans people. Just u it seems. Some of the other trans people who have joined on here since the libra issue arose speak very well. They only have about 15 posts as well. Is it wrong to lurk? I was always a bit cautious about posting as there seems to be so much venom on the forums. I'm afraid I'll become a target if say anything that offended someone which is not hard considering how sesntitive most people seem to be on here. Perhaps I should go back to lurking.

HubbaHubba

HubbaHubba said on the 8th Jan, 2012




Thank you T-boy. I thought that's what it meant but there seems to be some inconsistent usage here. I think it was one of mrash's posts.

MrAsh

MrAsh said on the 8th Jan, 2012



Which one? If you are going to be critical provide evidence! I posted the Wikipedia link, yet you are way too arrogant to read that or do your own research.

HubbaHubba

HubbaHubba said on the 8th Jan, 2012




See what I mean. Pentulant and childish. No wonder people on here won't give u a chance

HubbaHubba

HubbaHubba said on the 8th Jan, 2012



I'm posting from a mobile and it is difficult to navigate through lots of posts. When I get access to a desktop later in the week I will look for it. And I wasn't being critical, merely saying there was some inconsistent usage which made it confusing for people not up with the lingo.

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 8th Jan, 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_zy-_G3krY&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL8786EE29FF234EB6

DavoJimbo

DavoJimbo said on the 9th Jan, 2012

lol

hubba-hubba you have been dismissed

p.s. cis is just another word for normal

Battybattybats

Battybattybats said on the 9th Jan, 2012

But the ad is still full of fail! The ad shows the drag queen losing in a competition because she isnt a menstruating cisgender woman. Therefore the ad puts drag queens down and everyone too who is feminine but not a menstruating cisgender woman. So the ad remains transphobic and homophobic and sexist (menstruation as ultimate test of femininity is sexist to non-menstruating cisgender women too). Besides transgender is more than just binary-gender transsexuals. It includes all of sex and gender diversity! Those gay men who like to dress as women might need to get over their internalised transphobia and deal with their intrinsic connection and part of trans. And to have a bit of pride in being feminine! Theres been positive drag ads, but this one is not.

Irene

Irene said on the 9th Jan, 2012

OMG. So all ads have to be approved by transsexuals in case they offend abolutely anyone at all?
But I fail to see how it's homophobic :confused: And sexist - oh of course, men don't menstruate, so it's sexist against males. Hang on - it's age-ist too - because older women don't menstruate either, and according to you, the ad implies they're not real women because they don't menstruate.
I think I'm beginning to understand ...

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 9th Jan, 2012

yes because we are really busy compiling ads. Lots of them. Its 1 ad. Its not like we are going to make the world un-liveable because we dont like an ad. Why cant trans people not like an ad and have a right to say so without people telling us we are invalid. We already know we are invalid, we want to change that. Do what not have that right?

without all the minimisation.

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 9th Jan, 2012

can we not have the right too

Dsquare

Dsquare said on the 9th Jan, 2012



No, no, you've got it all wrong. What the ad is really saying to all those menstruating cis-gendered women is that while they think they can go out and have a good time like everyone else, they're still slaves to their biological needs as women and would be far better off at home pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen where they belong.

Clearly the intention of this ad was to offend absolutely everyone. Interesting approach when trying to sell a product.

MrAsh

MrAsh said on the 9th Jan, 2012

I find the ad really offensive since both Sandee and the other actress (funny that she doesn't have a name) are just fair haired plain Jane wall flowers.

Please Libra, next time cast hot brunettes and other dark haired girls with tanned complexions like they just walked off the beach in Rio, the streets of Shanghi or come from Jamaica! Now that would be viewing pleasure! :D

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 9th Jan, 2012

[URL="http://www.comingout.com.au/?p=210"]http://www.comingout.com.au/?p=210

http://lenoregore.wordpress.com/2012/01/05/transphobic-tampons-why-julia-serano-has-no-love-for-libra/

http://skepchick.org/2012/01/13-myths-and-misconceptions-about-trans-women-part-one/

Irene

Irene said on the 9th Jan, 2012

I found it really offensive too. Being post-menopausal I'm clearly not a real woman. I think we should get the Pensioners Association protesting!

Irene

Irene said on the 9th Jan, 2012



Of course you can, dat. But do it over something worth while - something blatant. Being angry and protesting takes a lot of nervous energy, and really, this ad doesn't warrant it. There was no transphobic intent, and it was never even seen in this country. And your protest is not being heard in the broader community - you don't need to convince the gay community generally speaking. Save your anger for things worth being angry about. In the meantime, enjoy life - even if it's just the simpler pleasures.

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 9th Jan, 2012

but we decided that for us this issue is worth while, in fact its perfect. So why would you continue to question our motives if thats what we have decided to do, why not throw some more support our way. Good bridge building exorcise.

can you at least toy with the idea that we might know what we're doing?

Just about everyone i know is on board

this is worth it, our community has spoken about nothing else for 5 days now. We are not silly.

T-Boy

T-Boy said on the 9th Jan, 2012



You know, you don't get an automatic pass because you are old.

EvilEmpress

EvilEmpress said on the 9th Jan, 2012

I would have to disagree that is it is only curiosity.

Many of the transfolk I know received the classic line ' are you sure you're not just gay'

To me that indicates an attitude that in mainstream society it is less "offensive" to be gay than to be transgendered.
-----
It can also mean that there is an automatic association that transgender equates to gay - which could possibly be interpreted as such because the majority population thinks that, if transgender = drag queen, drag queen = gay, then transgender = gay.

It can also mean that the querying party believes it to be just a (for instance, cross dressing) phase that the anticipated respondent is going through or is not entirely sure about their gender identity. Trust me on this: by the time that a trans person has come out they are pretty darn sure about how they self-identify. (Whether or not they have the articulation to explain it to others is another matter.)

That, to me, is not simple curiosity so much as gross assumption. Attitudes need to be changed.

EvilEmpress

EvilEmpress said on the 9th Jan, 2012



In the last two years I have attended the Queer Collaborations conferences held annually among the tertiary student bodies around Australia. Most of the action discussed - most of the strategies organised to educate - either dissolve into the ether because students have other concerns at that time of year or become unserviceable due to the words and actions of other people (that is, people more majority than we) in the meantime.

It is not merely an uphill battle against vastly superior numbers - it is like trying to herd an army of cats up that hill while most of them are accidentally shooting each other with friendly fire.

I give up. Time for bed.

Irene

Irene said on the 9th Jan, 2012

I would have to disagree that is it is only curiosity.

Many of the transfolk I know received the classic line ' are you sure you're not just gay'

To me that indicates an attitude that in mainstream society it is less "offensive" to be gay than to be transgendered. That's because they don't understand it. i doubt your interpretation is correct- they understand gays, but not transgender. It probablydoesn't help either, that the transgender community allies itself with the gay community - eg: Mardi Gras, this forum etc, so the public sees you as a sub-group of the gay community.

It can also mean that there is an automatic association that transgender equates to gay - which could possibly be interpreted as such because the majority population thinks that, if transgender = drag queen, drag queen = gay, then transgender = gay.

It can also mean that the querying party believes it to be just a (for instance, cross dressing) phase that the anticipated respondent is going through or is not entirely sure about their gender identity. Trust me on this: by the time that a trans person has come out they are pretty darn sure about how they self-identify. (Whether or not they have the articulation to explain it to others is another matter.)

That, to me, is not simple curiosity so much as gross assumption. Attitudes need to be changed. That's where education is required.

dreadcircus

dreadcircus said on the 9th Jan, 2012

Holy fuck are people still fighting over this pile of feces ad? Ffs I'm a transgender woman who happens to be lesbian and I thought the ad sucked but due to enough outrage from a broad group of people Libra apologized an removed the ads. The impact was incredibly low and hopefully they will get back to basics and instead advertise their product is good at what it's sposed to do, soak up blood once a month.

There are far worse cases of discrimination going around. Young trans people are still bullied and employment and housing are incredibly hard to come by. Sitting around bitching about this crap is fruitless. We should be focusing on the positives to wipe out the negatives. Last year the govt made massive inroads towards gender equality with passport amendments. Many companies including the one I and many other trans people work for American Express are introducing amazing gender policies holding discussions to keep improving education and acceptance. The work done at melbournes's gender center is brilliant and people like Sally Goldiner are shinning lights creating positive changes.

Nobody will remember this shitty advert as it stinks of unimaginitive mucus. Trans people ARE more visible than ever before and as we continue to shine people will become less ignorant.

Be good to each other ffs and remember you don't need to know about a trans persons genitals as it's the person inside who matters most!

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 9th Jan, 2012

the real underlying issue here is that tampons and female toilets are at the core of some of the issues trans, intersex and gender variant people face in their everyday lives. So in a way this is a great platform on which we can now build a positive campaign. We have a city meeting tonight. look forward to hearing more about some of the great ideas floating around :)

will keep SS posted, watch this space.

Libragate, Liberate.

Irene

Irene said on the 9th Jan, 2012

You should be glad you don't have to worry about tampons; I doubt there's a woman on earth who doesn't hate them.

As for toilets - the issue could come from drag queens going into female toilets. Some women would feel threatened by having penises in the womens toilets - regardless of whether the drag queen was straight, gay or bi. And I think that's understandable to a degree. Some cis women also regard public toilets as a vulnerable place. Now, when a woman can't tell the difference between a drag queen and a transgender woman, you can see the potential for fear. They shouldn't need to engage you in a discussion about whether you consider yourself a man or a woman, and you would take offence if they did. (Another reason why trans women shouldn't dress like drag queens.) Think of the issue from the perspective of a hetero cis woman, especially one who has been seriously sexually abused. There are 2 sides to the coin. I know it doesn't explain the violence, but it would explain the discomfort, the looks etc that some transgendered women cop in womens toilets.

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 9th Jan, 2012

wow, you are assuming now. I am sorry but I dont remember you checking my junk out? lmao

shudder

Irene

Irene said on the 9th Jan, 2012

Huh? What am I assuming? And no, I'm certainly not asking to check your junk out! The only assumption I'm making is that you're a transgendered woman.

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 9th Jan, 2012

really, so then it is an assumption as I am IS but transitioned?

again and again and again you make too many assumptions

my pathology may be out of the realm of you're understanding.

Irene

Irene said on the 10th Jan, 2012

Well, it doesn't help when you have your profile hidden!

mark_

mark_ said on the 10th Jan, 2012

I agree with Irene. She's so often so pragmatic and sensible.

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 10th Jan, 2012

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3tq7Y30M3Ln3BprkUy0RQKJ6aqv10_lmGSsTIM3AEvDgVAvgSeu9Vtseh

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 10th Jan, 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylcp8OENiwU

Irene

Irene said on the 10th Jan, 2012

That's better! Smile! You're pretty!

Irene

Irene said on the 10th Jan, 2012


That youtube one is funny!
"Have I taken my hormones today?" LOL

MrAsh

MrAsh said on the 10th Jan, 2012

You should be glad you don't have to worry about tampons; I doubt there's a woman on earth who doesn't hate them.

As for toilets - the issue could come from drag queens going into female toilets. Some women would feel threatened by having penises in the womens toilets - regardless of whether the drag queen was straight, gay or bi. And I thinkU that's understandable to a degree. Some cis women also regard public toilets as a vulnerable place. Now, when a woman can't tell the difference between a drag queen and a transgender woman, you can see the potential for fear. They shouldn't need to engage you in a discussion about whether you consider yourself a man or a woman, and you would take offence if they did. (Another reason why trans women shouldn't dress like drag queens.) Think of the issue from the perspective of a hetero cis woman, especially one who has been seriously sexually abused. There are 2 sides to the coin. I know it doesn't explain the violence, but it would explain the discomfort, the looks etc that some transgendered women cop in womens toilets.

End drag. That will solve A LOT of problems gay men and nonCISgendered women have.

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 10th Jan, 2012

thats why i prefer inter muscular hormone injections gets that vitamin femme right in there where it belongs.

Irene

Irene said on the 10th Jan, 2012


Well, why does it always seem so angry?

Irene

Irene said on the 10th Jan, 2012



Maybe this is where you should be directing your efforts - drag is doing transgendered people a lot of harm, imo. They probably don't intend to, but they are. If you could make them understand the trouble they're causing, maybe they might desist? (Disclaimer: I don't know much about drag)

Asherbella

Asherbella said on the 10th Jan, 2012


If you've been asked private details of what your gender is, whether or not you're a he or a she, what you do for fun in the privacy of your bedroom, what you'd like to be called, being called 'it' having facebook pages denegrate you, having to justify your very existance, being faced with friends who suicide, lobby governments for understanding and support, having to face being 'faceless' everyday of your life....I guess you'd be 'angry' too.

You'd want to express that anger, I guess. I don't know. I'm not Datkindagirl. I can't and won't speak on her behalf.

I could ask you why you look so stoically aloof and indifferent in your avatar, but I won't insult your intelligence. That would be rude. People may express themselves reasonably as long as they do no harm. That's it. Everyone is different. We are all unique. You, Irene, are unique. I don't have to tell you that. One word. Empathy. To walk in someone elses shoes, look through someone elses' eyes - even if for a moment.....

I can't begin to understand what it feel like to be born the wrong gender - so I won't try. But I will respect Datkindagirl to tell her story. I will listen. She's been through enough.

Anyway, Irene, I like your humour. You're an extremely insightful and insight-filled person. I think you're question comes from a place of wanting to understand - I think sometimes we all need that. More of it. Being understood.:)

Irene

Irene said on the 10th Jan, 2012

ffs, I understand why she's angry, but she shouldn't be angry in this forum.
And that's not me in my avatar - it's the gorgeous Marianne Faithfull ("the angel with big tits", as Andrew Oldham once described her).

nickdisco

nickdisco said on the 10th Jan, 2012

ffs, I understand why she's angry, but she shouldn't be angry in this forum.
And that's not me in my avatar - it's the gorgeous Marianne Faithfull.

Just in case you forgot

fo·rum (fôrm, fr-)
n. pl. fo·rums also fo·ra (fôr, fr)
1.
a. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
b. A public meeting place for open discussion.
c. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.
2. A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.
3. A court of law; a tribunal.

[Middle English, from Latin; see dhwer- in Indo-European roots.]

Asherbella

Asherbella said on the 10th Jan, 2012

ffs, I understand why she's angry, but she shouldn't be angry in this forum.
And that's not me in my avatar - it's the gorgeous Marianne Faithfull ("the angel with big tits", as Andrew Oldham once described her).

Why shouldn't Datkindagirl be angry in this forum?
If you have come across to her as condescending, she'll tell you about it. That's her. Accept it.
I know who Marianne Faithfull is but don't know what she looks like or what she stands for.
I'm 35. I'm not especially interested in the woman. To me she looks like a quaintly British version of Jane Fonda.
You can be angry, too, Irene. Gee whizz. Spit at your computer if you want. I don't know. What gets you angry? Talk about it. my point is, and I do have one, is that trans people, including Dat, have the right to express their opinion about this Libra commercial. This thread has been SO informative and I've learned heaps about trans people because of it and how drag is absorbed, projected and presented on the gay scene and why it's important to talk about gender identity/gender roles and what it means for us as a community to debunk the issues that confront, mystify and upset us.

Mama Catastrophe

Mama Catastrophe said on the 10th Jan, 2012


I know who Marianne Faithfull is but don't know what she looks like or what she stands for.
I'm 35. I'm not especially interested in the woman. To me she looks like a quaintly British version of Jane Fonda..

Oh Ash you couldnt be more wrong about Marianne - quaint is just not a word to describe her. Google her name, bear skin rug and Mars bar and you'll see how this gal rolled. Shes heaven

MrAsh

MrAsh said on the 10th Jan, 2012



I agree Mama, you wouldn't hear Jane Fonda sing this! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mvAMEaWgTQ

EvilEmpress

EvilEmpress said on the 10th Jan, 2012

On a side note it grates every time I see that word "should" thrown around. I think that a lot of people need a better understanding of "should" as a concept of selfishness.

The word is used to indicate a projection of desire of expectation about the world, based on opinion - as though expressing that something will happen if it is willed into being. Should is an illusion. Nothing -should- happen, nobody -should- do anything.

Do not tell me what I should do - your expression of desire is not necessarily mine, what is best or what is best for me.

Asherbella, I am glad you are learning about things and I hope that that knowledge comes in useful some day.

trina2004

trina2004 said on the 10th Jan, 2012

You should be glad you don't have to worry about tampons; I doubt there's a woman on earth who doesn't hate them.

As for toilets - the issue could come from drag queens going into female toilets. Some women would feel threatened by having penises in the womens toilets - regardless of whether the drag queen was straight, gay or bi. And I think that's understandable to a degree. Some cis women also regard public toilets as a vulnerable place. Now, when a woman can't tell the difference between a drag queen and a transgender woman, you can see the potential for fear. They shouldn't need to engage you in a discussion about whether you consider yourself a man or a woman, and you would take offence if they did. (Another reason why trans women shouldn't dress like drag queens.) Think of the issue from the perspective of a hetero cis woman, especially one who has been seriously sexually abused. There are 2 sides to the coin. I know it doesn't explain the violence, but it would explain the discomfort, the looks etc that some transgendered women cop in womens toilets.

I think all toilets should be unisex. The underlying, disgusting, assertion behind 'female' and 'male' toilets is that men will get rapey if they see women... Washing their hands? Because the women's bathroom generally has lockable cubicles so I really can't see anything titillating about hand washing, reapplying your eyeliner, etc.

MrAsh

MrAsh said on the 10th Jan, 2012



I have worked and currently am working in an environment where the toilet facilities are unisex. We only had a sanitary bin installed late last year and sadly we had to put signs up informing people of it's purpose since the other male in my team who is from Ireland had never seen one before, started filling it with used toilet paper and hand towels. True. He also follows the 'if it's yellow let it mellow, if it's brown flush it down' rule. Needless to say I was on a crusade with numerous complaints to management about this and thank goodness the situation has changed.

The latter aside, I find that men and women can use facilities with little fuss and other problems in civilised environments like work places and those unisex self cleaning public toilets. Yet in bars, clubs etc... I wouldn't recommend it. The evils of drugs, alcohol and sexual imagery in those places is likely to create more temptation for those with little self control to do undesirable things to their fellow man.

Irene

Irene said on the 10th Jan, 2012

On a side note it grates every time I see that word "should" thrown around. I think that a lot of people need a better understanding of "should" as a concept of selfishness.



I used the word 'should' in regard to hating tampons. I find it difficult to believe that anyone would actually want to use them. It wasn't called 'the curse' for nothing. The best thing about menopause is no more periods :)

Asher - I had a real giggle over calling Marianne 'quaint'. Not just the mars bar, she wrote 'Sister Morphine' for Jagger after spending time in a Sydney hospital after she ODed, she spent time living on the streets of Soho and she survived it all, came out the other side still stunningly beautiful and then had along lasting affair with Kate Moss (many years her junior). Yeah, real quaint LOL LOL

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 10th Jan, 2012

Libra just offered me a job

datkindagal

datkindagal said on the 10th Jan, 2012

but we had a great meeting and have started working on some press releases and a kick ass campaign off the back of Libragate.

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