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Image for Police: "You've spoken. We've listened. More to come."

Police: "You've spoken. We'velistened. More to come."

“Rest assured, this is not falling on deaf ears. We can’t be sitting here next year having the same discussion.”

Listening to dozens of accounts of inappropriate police behaviour during Mardi Gras season, last night the message from Surry Hills Local Area Commander Superintendent Tony Crandell’s message to attendees of the Police Community Forum was: “You’ve spoken. We’ve listened. More to come.”

Of the around 200 concerned individuals who met in a Surry Hills hall last night to share their concerns, many of them took their opportunity to speak passionately about their personal experiences being harassed by officers during recent Mardi Gras events.

The situation gained widespread public attention when video of 18-year-old Jamie Jackson hit YouTube, but the issues raised last night involved much more than just one teenager at the parade. Tensions over the use of sniffer dogs at the parties, over-policing of various Mardi Gras events and perceived homophobia from officers brought in from outside the local area has been brewing since long before this season’s events.

Superintendent Crandell spoke to Same Same just after the meeting, and admitted “it was a very difficult environment. But I feel very positive that we have can work through these issues and get this right, particularly in relation to the Mardi Gras season 2014.

“This level of disquiet has resonated greatly with me, and I have some work to do.”

One audience speaker who said he was working in front-of-house at the Mardi Gras Party this year was particularly damning. “I saw the worst policing I’ve seen in my 59 years,” he told the Forum. “People were being dragged out and told ‘if you’ve got nothing on you, you won’t object to being searched’. Over and over again.”

Until now, the NSW Police Force had so far refuted complaints about officer conduct, put to them repeatedly by Same Same. “I wouldn’t say refute,” reacted Crandell. “I would say we need a thorough investigation. I want to know what went on, with as much information as possible, so I can make an informed decision, and the other Local Area Commanders can also make an informed decision for officers under their command for day to day operations.”

“This level of disquiet has resonated greatly with me, and I have some work to do.”

On the issue of police officers with dogs at the Mardi Gras Party, he leaned back on policy. “Dog drug detection is allowed by legislation and we use whatever the legislation allows to enforce the law.”

Part of ACON’s work is addressing drug use in the community, a subject CEO Nic Parkhill has distinct views on. “Current drug policy is certainly flawed and we advocate for change,” he told the Forum. “Currently it’s intimidating and scaring people.”

Crandell was also asked about why there were so many extra police officers on duty during Mardi Gras Parade night this year. “As far as I’m concerned, the more police I have the better… aiming to make it safer.”

This year tensions broke out after the Parade as it took such a long time to open Oxford Street afterwards. The Mardi Gras crew explain that this year’s Parade started 15 minutes late and ended half an hour early, meaning that contractors were not ready to clean the street and officers had to keep the barriers in place until they did their work. “Our strategy will be different next year,” assured Crandell.

He also expressed regret at the “cover up, chaps” treatment that members of the Leather Pride group received at the Parade. “I don’t have any problems with chaps,” he responded, to some audience mirth. “That really could’ve been handled better. I apologise – we can do better than that.”

Many speakers noted that local police officers from Surry Hills or other inner suburb stations were in general respectful of our diverse communities. The problem was perceived to be with those who can in from the outer suburbs.

“I don’t think anyone here has concerns about Surry Hills Police,” summed up one speaker from the audience. “It’s ones from outside. Good old fashioned poofter-bashing.”

Superintendent Donna Adney acknowledged that concern. “Our expectation is that officers work with dignity and respect. That’s always our aim,” she explained. “If there’s a problem with homophobia in police, we need to address it. Many issues raised tonight show we need to look at different training.”

All the issues raised were listed at the end of the forum. They are:

Security contractors – conduct at events, training
Drug detection dogs – abuse of strategy, lack of oversight, constituting community members as criminals, damage to community relations, lack of finds/false positives, independent observers?
Police Conduct – Intimidation, mistreatment, internal culture, targeting, assault allegation, harassment during parade, searches without reasonable grounds, strip searches, homophobia, need for oversight
Police training and education – diversity training, collaborative briefing (Mardi Gras, ACON, etc)
Police complaints – due process, volume, lack of follow up, sanctions for officers (suspension), need to lodge complaints
Negative perception to visitors
Community response – role of Mardi Gras
Scale of Police operations – roads (policing access/crossing), number of officers deployed, deployment criteria (outside LACs).

Superintendent Crandell concluded: “I support a follow up community consultation in coming months, where I can provide something more substantial about our progress back to this forum. My target is getting this right before Mardi Gras 2014.”

Sydney MP Alex Greenwich then reminded the meeting that it’s important to lodge a formal complaint if you have specific concerns, or if you are scared to do that, lodge with his office or your local member – “as without the underpinning data, reform is less likely.”

At the end of the Forum, attendees were told of the various ways they can lodge their concerns. Promising advice, support and action, here’s the contact details:

Legal advice – Inner City Legal Centre – 1800 244 481 – iclc@iclc.org.au
ACON’s Anti-Violence Project – 02 9206 2116 – www.avp.acon.org.au
Alex Greenwich, Member for Sydney – 02 9360 3053 – Sydney@parliament.nsw.gov.au


Additional reporting by Miles Heffernan.

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brodes13

brodes13 said on the 19th Mar, 2013

Fingers are crossed, but I am very doubtful that much will change. The police in sydney who work at events/parties are the same at gay and straight events treating everyone like criminals until they prove their innocence. Even then there is no apology from them afterwards for ruining your day, and embarrassing you in front of your peers. There are some great police and I don't want to pigeon hole the whole force, but I have experienced this, or witnessed it for 8 years now at big events/parties. It's actually gotten to a point where I'd rather not go and waste my money.

Light-Bearer

Light-Bearer said on the 19th Mar, 2013

Yes, but everyone got to dress up and pretend they were important. And that's the main thing.

Now everyone stop being so complainy and let's paint a fucking rainbow.


ARE YOU WITH ME

MrAsh

MrAsh said on the 20th Mar, 2013



Have you thought that it goes both ways and if the GLBTIQ community wants the police to be fairer and less prominent at events, the GLBTIQ community needs to confront its drug culture, which in my view has wrecked GLBTIQ parties and the scene in general in many ways.

yogi

yogi said on the 20th Mar, 2013

It was a very interesting forum, with people raising some very valid concerns. I am very hopeful that a lot of these concerns will be dealt with, at a Government level, through Alex Greenwich & with police. All eyes are watching now. One of the many clear messages that came through for me last night is, if anyone has experienced over use of police force personally or witnessed it, you must report it, now is the time to do this, other wise we can not expect much to be done about it. It seems to me that a lot of people are not reporting their experiences, for all kinds of reasons. If you witness or are a part of over use of police force, film it if you can.

crazzymikey

crazzymikey said on the 20th Mar, 2013

I agree with you brodes and there has to be real change from government in the powers police have in regards to parties

crazzymikey

crazzymikey said on the 20th Mar, 2013



of course people are afraid to report police to police or feel it will be futile...

Barrin

Barrin said on the 20th Mar, 2013

One of the eye-popping statements last night came from someone who was on the Mardi Gras working parties back in the nineties. That was when the parade was getting 300,000 people and the party upwards of 20,000. He said the police contingent back then was 200. Now the parade and party only get about half the numbers yet the police presence has quintupled. In response to that Superintendant Crandell said he'd have more police if he could. :eek:

yogi

yogi said on the 20th Mar, 2013



I see your point MrAsh, but it's not just a drug thing with our community, however, I do think alcohol (also a drug)is more of a problem than any other kind of drug.

I don't condone the use of drugs, however, we need to change our approach towards drugs all together, in all communities. I think we need to take our minds away from what we have been told & what laws have made us think or believe. The so called "war on drugs" is not working, the police know this, but wont face the facts. There is no black & white answer to it all & everyone has an opinion. We need to look at other ways of dealing with the drug culture, what is current is clearly not working. I don't think we should be demonizing anyone who uses drugs or has a problem with them. Its a very serious concern for a lot of people. There is always a lot more going on underneath drug & alcohol use, with anyone. There needs to be a lot more time & money spent on how we can help these people, we need to address the causes of why people self medicate with drugs & alcohol. Start at the cause, rather then wasting so much money on catching small time uses & ruining their lives even more.

We need to except that drugs are part of our society, they are not going anywhere, in fact is getting worst. To me it makes sense to change our thinking around drugs & alcohol. A strong focus on helping people, & using less words like "junkie" a term I hate. Their are real people behing these very real problems, we must never forget this. I believe everyone can be helped in some form, we could all be reaching out to our friends & family a little more, instead of judging & demonizing them.

yogi

yogi said on the 20th Mar, 2013



Yeah your right, that was made very clear last night. People must still report their experiences. We had a strong commitment from Alex that he will follow up on this, I believe he will.

pete1000

pete1000 said on the 20th Mar, 2013

Great article MATT ! Thank-you It's good to see Same Same reporting so excellently on this really serious issue and particularly compared to the other gay press.
The numbers of problems that have occurred speak for themselves.
Lets hope that some change occurs.The reality is it needs to be a HUGE change.Many examples are there .
It's a shame that the money spent on sniffer dog patrols at 8pm at drag shows at Stonewall and Carmen's memorial etc etc could have been spent on investigating the 50 or more suspicious deaths probable murders of gay men that have occurred over the last 30 years.

JimC

JimC said on the 20th Mar, 2013

Great forum and thanks for all your hard work Alex Greenwich to make it happen. One of the interesting comments made last night is how the attitude of the police attending has changed from 10 or so years ago to now. Previously they enjoyed being there and got into the spirit of the occasion, now they seem hell bend on finding trouble and enforcing their powers regardless of the party atmosphere that everyone is in. I look forward to follow up meetings and updates on the issues raised.

JayTee

JayTee said on the 20th Mar, 2013



well du-uh.

Of course you have to report it.

You've ALWAYS had to report stuff/take action if you what things to change. The real world isn't magic where things automatically get fixed just because someone dint like the way they got treated.

The problem with people these days (actually just the whiners...) is that they expect things to change just because they wish for them to.

There is a disconnect between thought and action.

People think a whine is enough to change things.

People expect things to change but aren't willing to put effort into something to make things change. They just expect this to be handed to them. Ie. "it's my right!!". ...well yes it is your right but the real world doesn't work that way.

JayTee

JayTee said on the 20th Mar, 2013



The difference between then and now, is that now the streets are awash with alcohol. And yes alcohol is a drug.

I was speaking to a police officer in the riot squad a few weeks before parade night and he said parade night is without qualification, the single most violent night of the year in Sydney (bar a cronulla riot/Muslim riot/houso riot type scenario that flares up occasionally). (see footnote below for an interesting correlation about these events).

It outranks new years eve, where there are more families with children and oldies in their midst.

And it outranks Australia day - where all the drunks are spread out accross the city.

Parade night has 300,000 people in one part of the city, and a fair percentage of them are drunk.

Are you surprised there are problems on parade night?



Footnote for people interested in how risk factors link together to cause a specific effect:

Major studies have shown that in order for there to be a massive riot that takes over a large part of a city, 3 conditions are normally present:

1. A minority group that feels persecuted
2. A high environmental temperature
3. An igniting event

The crounulla riots, redfern riots, even the LA riots had all these 3 contributing factors.

Take away 1 or more of these factors and the riots are usually much less severe or don't happen at all (how many riots are there in Siberia?)

yogi

yogi said on the 20th Mar, 2013

well du-uh.

Of course you have to report it.

You've ALWAYS had to report stuff/take action if you what things to change. The real world isn't magic where things automatically get fixed just because someone dint like the way they got treated.

The problem with people these days (actually just the whiners...) is that they expect things to change just because they wish for them to.

There is a disconnect between thought and action.

People think a whine is enough to change things.

People expect things to change but aren't willing to put effort into something to make things change. They just expect this to be handed to them. Ie. "it's my right!!". ...well yes it is your right but the real world doesn't work that way.

I agree with most of what you say, however, I think there is a lot more to it than people just expecting things to change. People don't speak up for lots of reasons. We do need to encourage people to report stuff more often. When it came to last night, I did not feel their was one person that was what you call "whiners" Everyone had valid things to say.

Your very right, people have to put in some effort if they want any real change. I think there are many factors, one would be that most people these days are very time poor, for lots of reasons. The amount of red tape does not help these days either. :)

ammonite

ammonite said on the 20th Mar, 2013

so where did the extra police come from exactly?

pete1000

pete1000 said on the 20th Mar, 2013

JT what a lot of drivel.Mardi Gras is NOT the most violent night of the year in Sydney It is NEW YEARS EVE .The riot copper you were talking was probably there on the night of Mardi Gras with that mindset and so we have the problems we have had.Well duh-uh ?

Barrin

Barrin said on the 20th Mar, 2013

The difference between then and now, is that now the streets are awash with alcohol. And yes alcohol is a drug.

I was speaking to a police officer in the riot squad a few weeks before parade night and he said parade night is without qualification, the single most violent night of the year in Sydney (bar a cronulla riot/Muslim riot/houso riot type scenario that flares up occasionally). (see footnote below for an interesting correlation about these events).

It outranks new years eve, where there are more families with children and oldies in their midst.

And it outranks Australia day - where all the drunks are spread out accross the city.

Parade night has 300,000 people in one part of the city, and a fair percentage of them are drunk.

Are you surprised there are problems on parade night?


I've been going to MG for around 20 years and whilst it's always been there, I haven't noticed any worsening in drunkeness or violence in the crowd. I'm wondering what your riot squad officer based his opinion on? Basic observation (like I just did)? Liquor sales? The number of arrests/incidents reported by police? Obviously the latter will be higher if the police presence has quintupled over the years. And if alcohol is the main problem then why aren't the police pushing for a zero alcohol policy on the street? I suggested this in another thread last week. Unless you're in a venue or a ticketed area like BGF stand and MG members then there should be no bars available and no BYO. Even if they just floated it as an idea I think the publicity alone could have a positive effect. Flex your muscles in the lead up to the event, it's too late on the night.

JayTee

JayTee said on the 20th Mar, 2013

I agree with most of what you say, however, I think there is a lot more to it than people just expecting things to change. People don't speak up for lots of reasons. We do need to encourage people to report stuff more often. When it came to last night, I did not feel their was one person that was what you call "whiners" Everyone had valid things to say.

Your very right, people have to put in some effort if they want any real change. I think there are many factors, one would be that most people these days are very time poor, for lots of reasons. The amount of red tape does not help these days either. :)

I was referring more to the protestors and general whingers who claim all sorts of injustice but don't actually do anything other that release hot air.

The people who went to the forum (from what I hear, I didn't go), where constructive. But you can really only do that when you use your indie voice. Shouting doesn't do much but release hot air (and make u look like a loon).

The forums are the right way of going about things. Constructive and working in collaboration. And you'll note that the forums were set up by people who weren't being hysterical.

JayTee

JayTee said on the 20th Mar, 2013




Relax. He never said that it was gay people who were causing the problem. Quite the opposite actually.

It's all the straight bogans who come in from greater Sydney and cause the problems. One if the reasons why they've moved the parade up the route and made Hyde Park mostly off limits.

And no he didn't have the attitude of just wanting to beat people up. You'd be surprised the contexts under which I met him that would suggest your assertion is wrong.

JayTee

JayTee said on the 20th Mar, 2013



5 stabbings in Hyde park on the one night........

(I doubt a police presence caused that).

JayTee

JayTee said on the 20th Mar, 2013



The police ARE pushing for a restriction on alcohol.

Not just on parade night, but across the board.

Police and hospitals have been calling for lock outs to be put in place between 1am and4am for years.

But the state governments (both labour and liberal) have constantly resisted these calls despite evidence that lock outs reduce violence to a great degree.

Blame the Australian hotels association for turning so many of us into alcoholics.

I bet Jamie wouldn't of even come to the attention of the police if he wasn't drinking that night.

Barrin

Barrin said on the 20th Mar, 2013

5 stabbings in Hyde park on the one night........

(I doubt a police presence caused that).

That's not what I meant and you know it.
It's only logical... if there are more police on duty there will be more incidents reported. Same thing would apply to something like highway patrol. Of course if the beefed up police presence didn't yield results you'd have to wonder why they were there.

(And if I was cynical I'd say police want to chalk up enough incidents to justify their presence. But since I'm not cynical I won't say that.) :)

Barrin

Barrin said on the 20th Mar, 2013

The police ARE pushing for a restriction on alcohol.

Not just on parade night, but across the board.

Police and hospitals have been calling for lock outs to be put in place between 1am and4am for years.

But the state governments (both labour and liberal) have constantly resisted these calls despite evidence that lock outs reduce violence to a great degree.

Blame the Australian hotels association for turning so many of us into alcoholics.

I bet Jamie wouldn't of even come to the attention of the police if he wasn't drinking that night.

Agree with every word of that (although I take full responsibility for my own alchholism). :o

JayTee

JayTee said on the 20th Mar, 2013

That's not what I meant and you know it.
It's only logical... if there are more police on duty there will be more incidents reported. Same thing would apply to something like highway patrol. Of course if the beefed up police presence didn't yield results you'd have to wonder why they were there.

(And if I was cynical I'd say police want to chalk up enough incidents to justify their presence. But since I'm not cynical I won't say that.) :)

I kinda think someone being stabbed would mean they wind up in hospital.

It's not just punch ups that people can shrug off. Stabbings are life threatening and require hospitalisation.

You can't fake those kinds of stats.

JayTee

JayTee said on the 20th Mar, 2013



I think culture has a lot to do with people's behaviours. It's probably not the final determinant, but it certainly plays a large part.

I don't take personal responsibility for my non-alcoholism. Bothy parents set a great example on how to drink responsibly, and all my siblings turned out to be non drinkers. In fact no one in my extended family has prols with drugs including alcohol. We have other problems, but not those.

I doubt it's a co incidence.

pete1000

pete1000 said on the 20th Mar, 2013

I bet Jamie wouldn't have been beaten up if there hadn't been homophobic thugs patrolling Mardi gras

Dsquare

Dsquare said on the 20th Mar, 2013

I think culture has a lot to do with people's behaviours. It's probably not the final determinant, but it certainly plays a large part.

I don't take personal responsibility for my non-alcoholism. Bothy parents set a great example on how to drink responsibly, and all my siblings turned out to be non drinkers. In fact no one in my extended family has prols with drugs including alcohol. We have other problems, but not those.

I doubt it's a co incidence.


Whereas my father was an alcoholic and I come from a long line of alcoholics yet neither myself nor either of my siblings are/were. I think growing up with an alcoholic father turned us off the whole idea.

JayTee

JayTee said on the 20th Mar, 2013




Well then you are one of the lucky ones.

A simple google search of "children of alcholics more likely" reveals:

http://www.bps.org.uk/news/children-alcoholics-more-likely-drink

People whose parents are alcoholics are more likely to drink themselves when facing stressful situations. This is the finding of new research from the Sahlgrenska Academy at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden - which is home to almost 2,000 doctoral students, as well as more than 27,000 full-time scholars - and claimed this type of behaviour can have significant consequences in the long term.

The investigation has been published in the journal Pharmaceutical Biochemistry and Behaviour and Anna Soderpalm Gordh, who carried out the study, said: "The results show that people with parents who have a history of alcohol abuse drink more than others when exposed to stress."

and

http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/children_of_alcoholics

Children Of Alcoholics

One in five adult Americans have lived with an alcoholic relative while growing up. In general, these children are at greater risk for having emotional problems than children whose parents are not alcoholics. Alcoholism runs in families, and children of alcoholics are four times more likely than other children to become alcoholics themselves. Compounding the psychological impact of being raised by a parent who is suffering from alcohol abuse is the fact that most children of alcoholics have experienced some form of neglect or abuse.


===

i'm not saying it's the be all and end all. Just that it's a huge influence.

so yes, if your culture has a huge alcohol problem (ie. kings cross), then you will have a hard time escaping that same behaviour.

JayTee

JayTee said on the 20th Mar, 2013



It's interesting that the cop is accused of homophobia, when in fact the manuever he did was pretty standard and happens in most situations where a person is resisting arrest.

If the officer is treating a gay person exactly the same as he treats a straight person, then how is that homophobia? Do we WANT to be treated differently because we are princesses?

at the very least, just call the officer a generic thug, without the homophobia tag. it might help improve your argument (but probably not) that it was purely the officer who caused that "igniting incident" .

pete1000

pete1000 said on the 21st Mar, 2013

Funny how you seem to know a lot about the police force,but there you go...Point is the force used on that night was SO EXCESSIVE.The police presence was SO EXCESSIVE.The resources poured into unncessary and over policing on the night and other times over Mardi Gras etc eg sniffer dog patrols at 8pm on a Friday night at a Drag Show on Oxford street could have been spent on investigating the deaths and probable murders of 50 or more gay men in Sydney over the last 30 years.I think the friends and families of these guys would feel a bit better knowing the real truth.

yogi

yogi said on the 21st Mar, 2013

The police ARE pushing for a restriction on alcohol.

Not just on parade night, but across the board.

Police and hospitals have been calling for lock outs to be put in place between 1am and4am for years.

But the state governments (both labour and liberal) have constantly resisted these calls despite evidence that lock outs reduce violence to a great degree.

Blame the Australian hotels association for turning so many of us into alcoholics.

I bet Jamie wouldn't of even come to the attention of the police if he wasn't drinking that night.

You can not just blame the Australian hotels association for turning so many people into alcoholics. There are so many factors to think about on many levels. Everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions, people also need to feel ok about seeking help when they need it, they need to have easy access to help as well. Everyone that drinks heavy or binge drinks, do it to self medicate, it's that simple. So we need to find out why people need to self medicate & offer help, instead, people tend to sit back & judge, but offer no help. Most the problems with substance or alcohol abuse come from attachment in some form.

JayTee

JayTee said on the 21st Mar, 2013



hahaha. yes i DO know alot about how police operate. funny that.

But people keep on going on about how the parade and parties are over policed, but something that happened 10-30 years ago was left uninvestigated, as if ceasing the "over policing" now could somehow pour more rescources into things that happened years ago.

They are 2 different things. 1 can't be changed for those men who were murdered (and i'm not quite sure when the 50+ number is coming from), and the other is just standard policing practice that involves no homophobia whatsoever and is about drug and alcohol culture that spans the gay and straight commercial scenes.

honestly. sometimes I just think people enjoy the drama of it all.

I'm embarassed that our community - after what we went thru in 1978 - is so precious that they call what happened to that twink "brutality" when in reality is was a classic "knock the wind out of him so he becomes more compliant as we have another 300,000 morons to deal with" manuever.

try going to other parts of the world where people disappear, never to be heard of again, because they spoke up about something the police didn't like. THAT'S police brutality. What we are dealing with is a bunch of whiners who can't see the bigger picture (ie. 300,000 morons on the street on the one night all thinking they can do whatever they want).

JayTee

JayTee said on the 21st Mar, 2013



you are right. there are alot more factors than the AHA. But they are a pretty big factor, which if taken care of can greatly reduce the amount of alcohol being consumed and resulting violence.

And i don't think that "having a problem with alcohol" is the same thing as being an alcoholic.

Most of the people bashing each others heads in every weekend aren't alcholics. they can stop if they choose to.

Their problem is that they can't control their impulses when they drink too much.

and on that point i think we CAN blame the AHA - as well as the NSW government for not listening to police and hospitals - because they want their coffers filled by the AHA for election time.

ammonite

ammonite said on the 21st Mar, 2013

@Jay Tee are you sure about it being a standard maneuver? - how do you know that?

Head impacts are pretty serious, i would find it very concerning if that was a common occurrence

JayTee

JayTee said on the 21st Mar, 2013

@Jay Tee are you sure about it being a standard maneuver? - how do you know that?

Head impacts are pretty serious, i would find it very concerning if that was a common occurrence

The impact isn't designed to hit the head (that's just a one of the calculated risks). It's designed to hit the upper torso so as to knock the wind out of someone, which makes them more compliant because they literally don't have enough oxygen going to their muscles for a short period of time.

Rugby players do that to each other all the time.

pete1000

pete1000 said on the 21st Mar, 2013

Yes well...there you go mr policeman

Anyhow back to the real world :
The money WASTED on sniffer dogs and excessive police patrols and over policing at Mardi Gras would be quite useful I am sure to put resources into other areas of policing and investigations.

I am sure the families and friends of the people in this article : 4-3-13

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/gay-hate-the-shameful-crime-wave-20130303-2fe9w.html

or :Gay hate: the shameful crime wave Paul Sheehan Sydney Morning Herald 4-3-13

would be really happy to find out what happened and the people who committed the crimes are sent to jail.And YES the number may be more than 50 maybe 70 or more.I don't think I would call that whining?
Its attitudes like yours that won't or can't change that have resulted in this mess.
And no we are not living in Africa or the Middle East we are living in 2013 Australia.Supposedly similar to Canada,UK etc etc

The incident with the so called 'twink' was OVER EXCESSIVE FORCE and UNNECESSARY But that is just the tip of the iceberg.

JayTee

JayTee said on the 21st Mar, 2013

Yes well...there you go mr policeman

Anyhow back to the real world :
The money WASTED on sniffer dogs and excessive police patrols and over policing at Mardi Gras would be quite useful I am sure to put resources into other areas of policing and investigations.

I am sure the families and friends of the people in this article : 4-3-13

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/gay-hate-the-shameful-crime-wave-20130303-2fe9w.html

or :Gay hate: the shameful crime wave Paul Sheehan Sydney Morning Herald 4-3-13

would be really happy to find out what happened and the people who committed the crimes are sent to jail.And YES the number may be more than 50 maybe 70 or more.I don't think I would call that whining?
Its attitudes like yours that won't or can't change that have resulted in this mess.
And no we are not living in Africa or the Middle East we are living in 2013 Australia.Supposedly similar to Canada,UK etc etc

The incident with the so called 'twink' was OVER EXCESSIVE FORCE and UNNECESSARY But that is just the tip of the iceberg.

I agree those families need closure. Unfortunately I don't think any amount of money poured into police investigations will give them any answers at this late stage as too much time has passed.

I do find it interesting though that now your number has climbed from 50 or so to 70 murdered gay men. I'd be interested in knowing how you calculated that number.

But most of all, I find your dismissal of the atrocities that glbt folk in Middle East or African countries have to suffer, as quite insulting and reeking of a privileged, sheltered and selfish life.

If those people aren't our brothers and sisters and we should not be concerned with what happens to them, then why should I be concerned and bothered about what happens to criminal glbt in this country? After all, I'm not a drug taking, drunken loud mouth piss pot who doesn't know how to avoid a tackle from someone bigger and more powerful than me.

...if your assertion that we shouldn't be concerned nor feel privileged and fortunate that we live in a safe country, whilst others suffer real brutality, is correct of course...


Christ. How will we cope should something really brutal happen to us?

mark_

mark_ said on the 21st Mar, 2013



I saw that in action at a Darling Harbour nightclub.

A lair was strutting around trying to get in the front door and showing off to his bimbos. The door bouncer used both palms to push him away and he flew like a puppet and landed ten foot away.

pete1000

pete1000 said on the 21st Mar, 2013

Yes well there we go again missing the point.The anger in the GLBTI community is NOT based on a single incident.
And JT go do some reading or get out a bit more.If you read the article in the Sydney Morning Herald or watched 4 Corners you will have seen that because of police inaction the number of gay men that were possibly murdered is between 50 and 70 and maybe more.Basically the fact that you even question the idea of a number is pathetic and unbelievable.

Marko

Marko said on the 21st Mar, 2013

You know it's a rare occasion when I find myself wholeheartedly agreeing with JT.

pete1000

pete1000 said on the 21st Mar, 2013

LOL really ? I wouldn't have believed that coming from another mr policeman !

azulmelb

azulmelb said on the 21st Mar, 2013

I agree those families need closure. Unfortunately I don't think any amount of money poured into police investigations will give them any answers at this late stage as too much time has passed.

I do find it interesting though that now your number has climbed from 50 or so to 70 murdered gay men. I'd be interested in knowing how you calculated that number.

But most of all, I find your dismissal of the atrocities that glbt folk in Middle East or African countries have to suffer, as quite insulting and reeking of a privileged, sheltered and selfish life.

If those people aren't our brothers and sisters and we should not be concerned with what happens to them, then why should I be concerned and bothered about what happens to criminal glbt in this country? After all, I'm not a drug taking, drunken loud mouth piss pot who doesn't know how to avoid a tackle from someone bigger and more powerful than me.

...if your assertion that we shouldn't be concerned nor feel privileged and fortunate that we live in a safe country, whilst others suffer real brutality, is correct of course...


Christ. How will we cope should something really brutal happen to us?

You mean something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q6558tY58E

pete1000

pete1000 said on the 21st Mar, 2013

You can read presumably can't you ? Go and read the SMH articles that's where the figures are.
And don't try get out of the fact that there are multiple incidents and or problems that have occurred with the NSW police over the last few years.
Haven't you read what happened at the police forum.A lot of problems have been identified I'd say.
The sooner you and the police start tackling them the sooner we an get some answers and some solutions.

Dsquare

Dsquare said on the 21st Mar, 2013

I'm not involved in this argument because it seems to be a lot of people with an axe to grind one way or another and way too much hyperbole, but one thing I find interesting is that it seems that a lot of the "incidents" were related to people being pissed off that "the police" didn't open Oxford St straight after the parade and people deciding to ignore this and try and force themselves across the street anyway. Interesting therefore that Mardi Gras made it known at the event last Tuesday that the reason the street stayed closed so long was that the parade finished early and the bunch contracted to clean it before it could be opened weren't there to start the cleaning early.

Sure, some of the police may or may not have handled some of the situations poorly, but it also seems that a lot of the angst is due to people refusing to accept that in a crowd of thousands of people their own little sense of entitlement may not have been the most important thing the police had to contend with.

Given the amount of division Mardi Gras seems to cause within the GLBTI community over the last few years maybe it's time to give it up and move on.

JayTee

JayTee said on the 21st Mar, 2013


The sooner you and the police start tackling them the sooner we an get some answers and some solutions.

Police have been tackling the problem(s). People protested over the tackles ;)

JayTee

JayTee said on the 21st Mar, 2013


Sure, some of the police may or may not have handled some of the situations poorly, but it also seems that a lot of the angst is due to people refusing to accept that in a crowd of thousands of people their own little sense of entitlement may not have been the most important thing the police had to contend with.



I think you've hit the nail on the head. Well said.

pete1000

pete1000 said on the 22nd Mar, 2013

Gee mr policeman and mr policeman obviously this is the attitude we have had to deal with so now you know why there have been so many incidents and problems with the Nsw police force and the glbti community You won't listen to what people are saying There is no hyperbole There is no agenda The facts are there for you to see so just get over it and grow up and do your job properly like you are paid to do And no I don't think tackling is funny especially when you have someone in handcuffs mate.

K-Fresh

K-Fresh said on the 22nd Mar, 2013

The problem with policing lies within the culture itself, and not just in terms of attitudes towards the GLBTI Q community. Many police men and women behave as if they are above the law, and in manners that anyone else in the community would be reprimanded for. Members of the police force should behave within the confines of the law and act as role models of society, both in and out of uniform. If they don't, who are we to look to?

mark_

mark_ said on the 22nd Mar, 2013



We look to our leaders in politics and religion :rolleyes:

JayTee

JayTee said on the 22nd Mar, 2013



I was a joke. U belong in the 70s if you've got not sense of humour.

And maybe then you'd know what police brutality is, instead of whining about being put in your place by people who have the responsibility of keeping all of us safe.

I don't have a problem with police taking down a trouble maker as quickly as possible, so that they can protect me from all the other trouble makers waiting in line.

JayTee

JayTee said on the 22nd Mar, 2013



But they are working within the confines of the law. The tackle that felled Jamie was a legal manuver.

flounder

flounder said on the 22nd Mar, 2013



Yeah Mr Policeman 1 and 2, are you infiltrating SS to spy? You know who you are... :eek:

Mama Catastrophe

Mama Catastrophe said on the 22nd Mar, 2013

Mama has often wondered if in the footage it was a homophobe spewing forth all sorts of disgusting names at the surrounding crowds, instead of this young gay man, - would we all still be condemning the police for throwing him to the ground. or would we be cheering the copper on ?

JayTee

JayTee said on the 22nd Mar, 2013



Or would we still want Jamie treated with kid gloves whilst someone was being gay bashed up the road but police couldn't attend because they were too busy politely asking Jamie to stop interfering with the people around him....

JayTee

JayTee said on the 22nd Mar, 2013



SS being such a covert underground society and all....

pete1000

pete1000 said on the 22nd Mar, 2013

Yes it would have been nice if the police had been up the road doing their job and stopping gay bashers and murderers Pity it wasn't happening the last 30 years but there you go hey.Rather be glamorous and pose in Oxford street abusing 60 kg gay twinks.

Dsquare

Dsquare said on the 22nd Mar, 2013




Am I supposed to one of the policemen? I think I'd look rather sexy in a uniform, 'specially with my shaved head and all. Tough but lovable.

JayTee

JayTee said on the 22nd Mar, 2013



Nice to see that you are slowly understanding just how complicated and unpredictable the job of the police is.

pete1000

pete1000 said on the 23rd Mar, 2013

Yes I'm understanding how unpredictable the police can be

friscopaul

friscopaul said on the 15th May, 2014

What do you think? Post your comment...

friscopaul

friscopaul said on the 15th May, 2014

Police are for our defense, defense for common people, when police beating them than it's showing or looking very dirty pics of police department we abuse it. who have given the right of beat the innocent people they can't understand government have no big army for control their common people if they revolt against their country government. that's why we suggest or want not all but corrupt police beware of this kind of revolution or revolt.

Paul has also haunted from police evidence tampering. read complete story

friscopaul.blogspot

coast_boy_21

coast_boy_21 said on the 15th May, 2014

Im suspicious of small rural town police officers, something about them that I don't trust.