ex gay groups and therapy

[ammonite]

has anyone here ever tried this? what was it like?

[Flaneur]

I know of someone who tried it. He now cuts himself and admits he's gay but hates all gay and bisexual men including himself. He once told me I was one of two or three gay men he doesn't wish would die, that soon changed and we have not spoken since.

[Brisbane_7000]

I hope you’re just asking this question out of general interest, and not because you’re considering it. In my opinion, the whole ex-gay thing has the potential to do terrible damage. Flaneur’s post above shows one negative effect it can have on people.

I believe that your sexual orientation is determined from birth and is part of your basic genetic makeup, like being right- or left-handed. I don’t believe it’s possible to change someone from gay to straight (or vice versa.)

However, it IS possible for an ex-gay program to give a gay person such a deep sense of self-hatred and self-loathing that they’ll go back into the closet and pretend to be straight for many years – even a lifetime in some cases. The ex-gay groups point to these as successful “conversions.”

I see them as a wasted and destroyed life that could have been so much better. Years ago I used to work for a gay phone counselling service, and we’d get very depressing phone calls from really old guys who were just coming out in their 70’s. They were full of rage and sadness at having finally accepted the fact that they had been “living a lie” their whole lives, but had come out far too late to have any real prospects of finding a partner (bit late to be setting up your first Gaydar profile at 78.) In many cases, ex-gay counselling had contributed to their decision to stay in the closet.

In fairness to the ex-gay counsellors, they’re not all horrible, evil people. Some are simply devout, fundamentalist Christians who genuinely believe that if they don’t convert you, you’re going to hell, so they honestly think they’re doing you a favour by trying to convert you. Unfortunately they never see the long-term pain and damage they cause. They’re not there to hear the story when one of their victims finally comes out of the closet in his 70’s or 80’s.

OK, that’s enough of a rant for now…

[Asherbella]

It's an industry. Not therapeutic.

[ammonite]

From my research there seems to be 2 kinds that mix

For the first you need to find a deep faith in god that you use to believe that he has changed you. It looks like it’s modelled on the 12 step drug rehabilitation program.
There is no way that would work for me.

The second is psychiatry based but everything I read contradicts itself. For example one of the theories about what causes homosexual feelings is bonding more to your opposite sex parent than your same sex parent, but then the same person will say that it can be caused by being abused by or distant from your opposite sex parent. How can it be both? Is there some perfect level of bonding to your mum and dad that makes you straight?
I would have thought that if some flaw in parenting made people gay, that everyone would be gay, because I have never met anyone from a perfect normal family.
I have always been a daddy’s girl, but there are straight women who are too right?

And then one of the treatments is to force yourself to act in more gender stereotypical ways – but what about fem lesbians and butch gay men? And what about all the straight people who do things that aren’t stereotypical for their gender when they are growing up? - I know a lot of straight tomboys.

I know of someone who tried it. He now cuts himself and admits he's gay but hates all gay and bisexual men including himself. He once told me I was one of two or three gay men he doesn't wish would die, that soon changed and we have not spoken since.do you know how is now?

It's an industry. Not therapeutic.But there are people who claim it is therapeutic. That's half the problem - neither side of the argument has very much evidence to back up their claims. One will do a study and the other will pick it to shreds.

I see them as a wasted and destroyed life that could have been so much better. Years ago I used to work for a gay phone counselling service, and we’d get very depressing phone calls from really old guys who were just coming out in their 70’s. They were full of rage and sadness at having finally accepted the fact that they had been “living a lie” their whole lives, but had come out far too late to have any real prospects of finding a partner (bit late to be setting up your first Gaydar profile at 78.) In many cases, ex-gay counselling had contributed to their decision to stay in the closet.That's awful.

How are you supposed to choose when you're told that if you act on your feelings in life you’ll go to hell for eternity, and also told that if you don’t act on your feelings you’ll waste your life and then find there is no eternity anyway?

[ammonite]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/34337416#34337416

this guy says it's from not bonding with the same sex parent and not bonding with same sex peers during pre adolescence. but i am very close to my mum, i guess just mabybe not as close as i am to my dad, and i had heaps of girl friends during pre adolescence. most of my friends were girls, maybe a quarter were boys.

[Brisbane_7000]

That's awful. How are you supposed to choose when you're told that if you act on your feelings in life you’ll go to hell for eternity...

That's an incredibly difficult choice - but it's a question all gay people who hold traditional religious beliefs have had to ask themselves.

Religious-based ex-gay groups tell you you have only two options:
1) Become straight, or
2) Go to hell.

They offer no third option. I can only imagine how much misery, angst and even suicides this sort of "teaching" causes.

As I mentioned before, I don't believe it's actually possible to change someone's sexual orientation… nor should there ever be a need to. You can make people too scared or ashamed to act on their desires, but I believe the feelings will always still be there.

If you're a Christian and struggling with the "I'll go to hell if I don't turn straight" question, there IS an alternative - the rapidly-growing Gay Christian movement around the world. I can't post a web link here (the system won't let me post direct URL's), but Google the phrase "Gay Christian network" and it will be at the top of the list.

They have thousands of people on discussion boards asking (and answering) these same types of questions - if you're planning to live your life as an 'out' gay person, are you going to hell? They definitely don't think so.

If you're considering the negative, bleak message of the ex-gay "ministries" - turn straight or be damned - then why not also explore the very positive message of the Gay Christian movement as well? You've asked some tough questions - maybe they can help you find the answers you're looking for.

[ammonite]

Thank you, I’ll check it out.
To be honest I have religious issues sometimes anyway, separate to any gay stuff, because I am Agnostic.

I guess the more bothersome/appealing part of the ex gay movement is the stuff based on psychiatry and (sometimes) science.

My parents think that the theory about problems with your relationship with your parents causing homosexuality is right, so they can't handle the thought that I might be gay, because that would mean they did something terribly wrong.

[bellsforher]

Hey Ammonite, I'm kinda worried about all this. Have you been thinking about this for a while or has the time of year really brought this up? Be good to yourself ok, it shouldn't be about what your parents think, but what you think.

[ammonite]

You are too nice, you shouldn’t worry about me, you have enough worries of your own.

And no I’ve thought about it before, but yes Christmas seems to bring it up again. Easter is not so bad for some reason.

Also this study in October found an enormous link (98%) between XMRV infection and CFS. The small healthy control group that was also infected has brought up discussion again of the possibility of stress at the time of infection being the difference between recovery and CFS.
The year I got sick was the same year I accidentally outed myself and my whole class hated me including my best friends (one of whom I had a crush on) and I was physically and psychologically bullied and had to go to counselling blah blah.
Anyway this has made me start to wonder if there is a connection between the two - that maybe being gay/bi/whatever-the-hell-I-am and coming out has actually indirectly ruined my life, or at least the last 12 years of my life. There's a little part of me that keeps saying I was being punished.

[bellsforher]

oh Ammi, I hate you beng so hard on yourself - it'll just make you sicker - I should know, i do it too.
It sounds like you're going through some really, really low times....I'll admit they are a bit beyond my scope some of them - especially the religious stuff, but I'm here for you ok?

[jojjie]

:( Hope you're ok, ammonite. Sending you lots of best wishes.

I haven't really heard or read anything about the ex-gay movement apart from maybe seeing something about it many years ago on Queer as Folk; but all that stuff about your parents or peers turning you gay sounds ridiculous to me. Ridiculous. Like Brisbane_7000 was saying, it sounds really dangerous and unhealthy.

Anyway, stay strong and positive :)

[Brisbane_7000]

this guy says it's from not bonding with the same sex parent and not bonding with same sex peers during pre adolescence. but i am very close to my mum, i guess just mabybe not as close as i am to my dad, and i had heaps of girl friends during pre adolescence. most of my friends were girls, maybe a quarter were boys.

Your parents seem to have given you the impression that the reason you're gay is because of some parent-child relationship issue that occurred early in your life. It seems you may believe this as well, as you appear to be suffering a lot of angst in trying to analyse what happened in your early life to "make you gay"... and what you may be able to do to "fix" it.

I'm sorry you're feeling this way. If it's any consolation, you already know my opinion on this issue - I disagree with your parents' view. I believe that sexual orientation is determined purely by a genetic 'roll of the dice', and isn't the result of any life experience. If my view is correct, then there's no point beating yourself up trying to work out "what went wrong" to make you gay.

I don't think there's any reliable scientific evidence which suggests that any life experience or relationship issue can make you gay. I believe the available evidence shows quite the opposite.

I wish I could say something to make you feel better, but I know these issues are complex. I do hear what you're saying, though. As Jojjie said, stay strong and positive. You're certainly not being 'punished' for anything, and things will get better. Greater clarity on the issue will come with time.

[Totka]

Ammonite,
I dont know you, but, love what you have to say and the support and warmth you offer to others in these threads. That suggests to me that you are a loving and worthwhile person. Your sexuality is only a part of you and does not define you. No one could improve who you are especially not these gay recovery jokers. If being a lesbian has contributed to who you are then it should be celebrated not denigrated. For Christmas give yourself the gift of this understanding.

[jojjie]

oh, you're all so clever and nice. This thread is helpful to me too.

[ammonite]

oh Ammi, I hate you beng so hard on yourself - it'll just make you sicker - I should know, i do it too.
It sounds like you're going through some really, really low times....I'll admit they are a bit beyond my scope some of them - especially the religious stuff, but I'm here for you ok?i know. thanks bells :D

:( Hope you're ok, ammonite. Sending you lots of best wishes.

I haven't really heard or read anything about the ex-gay movement apart from maybe seeing something about it many years ago on Queer as Folk; but all that stuff about your parents or peers turning you gay sounds ridiculous to me. Ridiculous. Like Brisbane_7000 was saying, it sounds really dangerous and unhealthy.

Anyway, stay strong and positive :)i guess it is pretty rediculous. the problem with things like this is that people believe in they're point of view so vehemently. and i listen to both sides and i just don't know who is right.

Your parents seem to have given you the impression that the reason you're gay is because of some parent-child relationship issue that occurred early in your life. It seems you may believe this as well, as you appear to be suffering a lot of angst in trying to analyse what happened in your early life to "make you gay"... and what you may be able to do to "fix" it.

I'm sorry you're feeling this way. If it's any consolation, you already know my opinion on this issue - I disagree with your parents' view. I believe that sexual orientation is determined purely by a genetic 'roll of the dice', and isn't the result of any life experience. If my view is correct, then there's no point beating yourself up trying to work out "what went wrong" to make you gay.

I don't think there's any reliable scientific evidence which suggests that any life experience or relationship issue can make you gay. I believe the available evidence shows quite the opposite.

I wish I could say something to make you feel better, but I know these issues are complex. I do hear what you're saying, though. As Jojjie said, stay strong and positive. You're certainly not being 'punished' for anything, and things will get better. Greater clarity on the issue will come with time.thank you, your posts have been really nice and helpful.

that's the thing though - I think my parents were and are fantastic parents. they have done so much for me.
We are in a weird limbo now where i haven't come out to them, but they suspect and they ask me sometimes. But it's the way they ask - I just can not bring myself to tell them the truth. And if I do eventually I feel like I will really hurt them, because of what they believe, and after everything we have been through with my health I don't know how I can do that.

I don't even like the research that suggests that it is genetic or congenital, because then i still feel like it is some kind of disorder or disease that would need to be fixed if it was possible.
and if it is genetic what is going to happen when genetic screening becomes more popular?

Ammonite,
I dont know you, but, love what you have to say and the support and warmth you offer to others in these threads. That suggests to me that you are a loving and worthwhile person. Your sexuality is only a part of you and does not define you. No one could improve who you are especially not these gay recovery jokers. If being a lesbian has contributed to who you are then it should be celebrated not denigrated. For Christmas give yourself the gift of this understanding.
aww Totka, that was really nice. i feel a little warm and fuzzy. thank you :D

[Brisbane_7000]

Just one quick additional comment…

I can tell from your other posts on this site, and how you relate to other people, that you're a warm, caring, thoughtful and very intelligent person. You've obviously earned the respect of the others on this board. And it seems I'm not the only one who thinks that:

Ammonite,
I dont know you, but, love what you have to say and the support and warmth you offer to others in these threads. That suggests to me that you are a loving and worthwhile person.

You seem to have a great set of parents as well:

I think my parents were and are fantastic parents. they have done so much for me.

So, in short, I know you have the wisdom and personal strength to work out these questions that are troubling you. And I'm confident that, although you have some important issues to work through with them over time, you and your parents will work all this out. They obviously love you very much - and vice versa - and that will get you through in the end… it just takes time.

[ammonite]

thank you very much :)

[camiseta]

Hmmmm I don't want to sound dismissive here but I may come across this way. Apologies if I do.

I think it is reasonable to seek treatment for disorders/diseases but to seek a treatment for what is a normal variant of human behaviour is absurd. It's akin to me going to the opthamologist begging them to somehow surgically change my eye colour from blue to brown.

[Baby]

Wow this is such an interesting thread, so much good information!

My personal belief: you are born gay, yes I think genetic but not in a disease kind of way. I almost believe there are more than two genders - yes there's male and female, but also gay male, gay female, transgenders, hermaphrodites etc etc.

About the ex-gay ministries...they are stupid, yes. But I suppose, if someone is from an ultra religious family and they will lose EVERYTHING by being gay...you can see why someone would choose to do it. I don't think it would ultimately be healthy, but you know I also know of gay people who came out and it ruined their life, and they committed suicide. It's really damn sad that it has to be that way, for some people it's a lose lose situation.

Ammonite I don't think it would be the answer for you. I think you'd benefit more from a program that teaches you to accept being gay, rather than one that teaches you to hide it. It might work short term, but I don't think it would work in the end.

[ammonite]

Hmmmm I don't want to sound dismissive here but I may come across this way. Apologies if I do.

I think it is reasonable to seek treatment for disorders/diseases but to seek a treatment for what is a normal variant of human behaviour is absurd. It's akin to me going to the opthamologist begging them to somehow surgically change my eye colour from blue to brown.but there is debate about whether it is a normal variant of human behaviour. a lot of people say it isn't.

Wow this is such an interesting thread, so much good information!

My personal belief: you are born gay, yes I think genetic but not in a disease kind of way. I almost believe there are more than two genders - yes there's male and female, but also gay male, gay female, transgenders, hermaphrodites etc etc.

About the ex-gay ministries...they are stupid, yes. But I suppose, if someone is from an ultra religious family and they will lose EVERYTHING by being gay...you can see why someone would choose to do it. I don't think it would ultimately be healthy, but you know I also know of gay people who came out and it ruined their life, and they committed suicide. It's really damn sad that it has to be that way, for some people it's a lose lose situation.

Ammonite I don't think it would be the answer for you. I think you'd benefit more from a program that teaches you to accept being gay, rather than one that teaches you to hide it. It might work short term, but I don't think it would work in the end.

says the woman who's status reads "turning straight because women are evil. I will watch Twilight 487 times until I become straight" :p

I also know of gay people who came out and it ruined their life, and they committed suicide.see that is what i have been thinking has happened to me, in a chain of unfortunate events - http://www.samesame.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=190104&postcount=10. i'm afraid of what will happen if i come out properly as an adult.
what happened to these people you know?

[camiseta]

but there is debate about whether it is a normal variant of human behaviour. a lot of people say it isn't.


In 1993 the WHO removed homosexuality for the ICD as a mental disorder. This was a direct result of groups like the American Psychological Association who from the late 80's called publically for it be be removed from the ICD based on the fact that homosexuality "implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social and vocational capabilities".

There is no debate.

[ammonite]

I know there is decent research showing that it doesn't harm a person to be gay, but that doesn't mean that it's not caused psychologically. And if something is psychological there is always the chance in people's minds that it could have been prevented and/or could be changed.

Plus the exgay groups just claim it was delisted as a mental disorder due to pressure from gay activist groups, and come up with all kinds of statistics about drug abuse and suicide etc, which are real statistics. But then the gay groups claim the statistics are the effects of homophobia. So it's like a ping pong game from hell that never ends.

[Brisbane_7000]

Plus the exgay groups just claim it was delisted as a mental disorder due to pressure from gay activist groups, and come up with all kinds of statistics about drug abuse and suicide etc, which are real statistics. But then the gay groups claim the statistics are the effects of homophobia. So it's like a ping pong game from hell that never ends.

I think you'll need to form your own opinion about which side of the debate has more worldwide credibility (and more numbers):

Side 1 - A small number of fringe-dwelling ex-gay groups who are pushing a fundamentalist religious agenda (which even moderate members of their own religion disagree with); or

Side 2 - Almost everyone else in the world EXCEPT religious fundamentalists. As Camiseta pointed out, this includes the American Psychological Association, which does not regard homosexuality as a disorder that needs to be "fixed", but as a variation, like being left-handed. The psychological profession in virtually every other civilised country shares this same view.

[Flaneur]

do you know how is now?
I've heard that he left the country to go somewhere where he didn't know anyone and they didn't speak English. New people, new life, new closets.

[ammonite]

i hope your friend is ok Flaneur. you never know, maybe he is happier now.

I think you'll need to form your own opinion about which side of the debate has more worldwide credibility (and more numbers):

Side 1 - A small number of fringe-dwelling ex-gay groups who are pushing a fundamentalist religious agenda (which even moderate members of their own religion disagree with); or

Side 2 - Almost everyone else in the world EXCEPT religious fundamentalists. As Camiseta pointed out, this includes the American Psychological Association, which does not regard homosexuality as a disorder that needs to be "fixed", but as a variation, like being left-handed. The psychological profession in virtually every other civilised country shares this same view.yeah, i know. it would be easier if i didn't know and care about so many people on side 1 though.
also the people i've met and know from side one are often not actually religious at all.

i guess how i feel is not very logical. i was just reading the other day a theory that a lot of thoughts and emotions actually come from the primitive part of your brain, but then the cerebral cortex justifies the feeling with thoughts. and you're not aware that this process takes place.

[bellsforher]

I think it might be a time to also take your thoughts and decisions slowly, not rush into any commitments/therapy/etc. Find what you need...might find a whole lot of wrong things first but I know you'll get there. :)

[jojjie]

mmmm. Just read all these posts. Feeling quite sick now. The following statements are not intended to put anyone else's feelings or opinions down but I feel the need to say them! So here is my list of Ten Things I Think.

1. My parents did not make me gay by being crap. They are awesome and loving and did a blisteringly good job raising me.

2. My choice of friends growing up did not make me a homo.

3. Homosexuality is not a disease or negative thing and therefore there is nothing to cure. I am not sick or incorrect because I love my girlfriend and find girls hot.

4. I couldn't give a flying fuck why I am gay, I just am.

5. My mum would prefer it if I was straight. This has wounded me for several years. Throughout that time we see each other all the time and have a great relationship. Despite our differences we accept each other and love each other.

6. I am still in the closet to some people I love. It is not easier than being out. It is lie you present to the world and a constant crushing of the soul.

7. I'm sometimes homophobic. I recognise this is shit and unhealthy and factually incorrect and try to move and love myself and others more.

8. Letting external things ruin your world is giving your power away. We should decide for ourselves whether we let things ruin our lives or tackle them head on and try to move past them. I know this is easier said than done, but man, we all have such power in ourselves. We should use it.

9. The gay community is fun and amusing and supportive. woot!

10. I think we should all love ourselves and other people more.

The End. Peace out.

[Brisbane_7000]

I think it might be a time to also take your thoughts and decisions slowly, not rush into any commitments/therapy/etc.

I agree. And if you do decide to get some therapy/counselling, I hope you'll consider the wide range of well-trained, professional and LGBT-friendly services available in Brisbane.

The only way you'll be able make an informed judgement on what the ex-gay crowd will tell you is to hear the other side of the story as well, from LGBT-friendly counsellors. There are plenty of them out there... and they exist for a reason. Internet forums are great, but there's no substitute for a good face-to-face chat.

[Ash Rehn]

In 1993 the WHO removed homosexuality for the ICD as a mental disorder. This was a direct result of groups like the American Psychological Association who from the late 80's called publically for it be be removed from the ICD based on the fact that homosexuality "implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social and vocational capabilities".

There is no debate.

Perhaps one debate remains...

Why is it that organisations and psychologists (or doctors or priests) have the power to measure us against norms and make decisions about who we choose to love and whether that love is acceptable to society?

In asking the question 'why' or proposing arguments about the reasons for sexuality, are we not reinforcing the idea that such questions need to be answered and such arguments put?

Thanks jojjie for your list of 10 things. I found it refreshing!

[rudeboy86]

But I suppose, if someone is from an ultra religious family and they will lose EVERYTHING by being gay...

If that is the case then they had NOTHING to begin with.

[rudeboy86]

but there is debate about whether it is a normal variant of human behaviour. a lot of people say it isn't.

Those who say it isn't a normal variant of human behaviour tend to be the ones who praised the onset of the AIDS Epidemic as some sort of divine/natural justice for our existence. FFS same-sex attraction is evident and frequent throughout the animal kindgom so there is nothing unnatural about it.

Seriously Ammi I am not here to slam you into the ground over your feelings as it seems like you are going through some serious personal shit at the moment but let's see it more as me yelling "snap out of it grrl, you are normal!"

Why on earth would you think you are unnatural because of who you love (or screw)? Seriously...!

Don't let the those religious fundies get to ya! Just brush em' off your shoulder like a small patch of dirt because that is all they are.

[Brisbane_7000]

Perhaps one debate remains... Why is it that organisations and psychologists (or doctors or priests) have the power to measure us against norms and make decisions about who we choose to love and whether that love is acceptable to society?!

Hey Ash… good question. Probably because we (LGBT people) will always be a very small minority of the general population, so we'll always be the interesting science experiment in their fucking petri dish. As a small minority, we can never "vote" ourselves any power - we have to depend on our straight allies to provide the numbers to make sure our human rights are upheld. Otherwise, yeah, they DO feel they have the power to make decisions about who we choose to love - and whether it's OK or not. Look at Proposition 8 in California.

This is a really interesting topic. However, I feel we may be drifting a bit off-topic from Ammonite's original thread, where she was grappling with some particular personal issues relating to her own sexuality, ex-gay theology, and the "can I ever turn straight" question.

Might be worth starting a new thread for this one. Up to you, but you've posed a good question…

[ammonite]

I think it might be a time to also take your thoughts and decisions slowly, not rush into any commitments/therapy/etc. Find what you need...might find a whole lot of wrong things first but I know you'll get there. :)thanks bells
I don’t think i will actually try any ex gay therapy or groups, mainly because I can’t find any treatments that don’t sound ridiculous to me. Some of them even sound homoerotic?
and most of the ex-ex-gay testimonials I have seen and read are more compelling than the ex-gay testimonials.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViaMczTmrkA

so I guess that means I'm f*cked LOL
or I must learn to love the self-hating homo-tendencied person I am haha

mmmm. Just read all these posts. Feeling quite sick now.i'm sorry

I agree. And if you do decide to get some therapy/counselling, I hope you'll consider the wide range of well-trained, professional and LGBT-friendly services available in Brisbane.

The only way you'll be able make an informed judgement on what the ex-gay crowd will tell you is to hear the other side of the story as well, from LGBT-friendly counsellors. There are plenty of them out there... and they exist for a reason. Internet forums are great, but there's no substitute for a good face-to-face chat.I have been to therapy 3 times, the first was when I was being bullied at school – positive thinking didn’t seem to help much when I was being slammed into brick walls and beaten with tree branches LOL

the second time was good, I was sent to a therapist to confirm a paediatrician’s diagnosis that I had a severe mood disorder, but the therapist she chose disagreed with her, and was the first person to suggest CFS. but I kept seeing her for a while and she helped me feel better about being ill. I wish I could see her again but we moved too far away.

the third time was just a couple years ago, my GP sent me to a local councillor he recommended. after 4 weeks I asked her why we had not talked about anything important to me – she said she was trying to get me to focus on positive things and avoid thinking about my problems. But i thought the point of counselling was to get advice, not to pay a small fortune every week to talk about my pets for an hour?

Those who say it isn't a normal variant of human behaviour tend to be the ones who praised the onset of the AIDS Epidemic as some sort of divine/natural justice for our existence. FFS same-sex attraction is evident and frequent throughout the animal kindgom so there is nothing unnatural about it.

Seriously Ammi I am not here to slam you into the ground over your feelings as it seems like you are going through some serious personal shit at the moment but let's see it more as me yelling "snap out of it grrl, you are normal!"

Why on earth would you think you are unnatural because of who you love (or screw)? Seriously...!

Don't let the those religious fundies get to ya! Just brush em' off your shoulder like a small patch of dirt because that is all they are.haha thanks RB :D *hugs*

[forbiddelust86]

Hi all.
I'm just going to jump back to the first post that started this thread.
I'm fairly new to alot of things in the LGBT community and the various things that people experience and come across in their life.
I'm 23 and been with my gf for 3 year. I am lucky to say my coming out story was pretty average and my family accept me and my girlfriend.
I'm shocked and sad to discover there really are these 'ex-gay' groups out there.
I was totally unaware and yet again I have something to read into.
My goal is to one day (probably about 7 years down the road) become a psychologist and I'd love to work with the LGBT community (I'm really interested in the transgender community)
Thank you everyone for putting so much effort into your posts and educating people like myself who are oblivious to some things in our world.
Yet another reason I keep coming back to the same same forums.

:)

[jojjie]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jojjie
mmmm. Just read all these posts. Feeling quite sick now.
i'm sorry


That comment wasn't directed at anyone or any post in particular

[Flaneur]

I know there is decent research showing that it doesn't harm a person to be gay, but that doesn't mean that it's not caused psychologically. And if something is psychological there is always the chance in people's minds that it could have been prevented and/or could be changed.
Well, you have to ask yourself when you consider this - does it matter if it's psychological and can be changed?

It obviously isn't killing you, it's not cancer or even the sniffles and the only problems exist in the minds of others. If people don't accept you when they discover your orientation then they're not accepting you, not just your orientation, no matter how they might attempt to delineate between the two.

However, if the psychology of something matters to someone ... well, animals, both those of higher and lower levels of awareness have been seen engaging in same sex relationships (I have a pair of gay male parrots, in fact, so I'm 100% sure of this). I'm sure there's no case of psychological influence there. It's even frequently used as a breeding tool in aviculture as lesbian Bengalese Finch couples and trios make brilliant foster parents for other birds' eggs.

Quite simply, it's a normal variant which comes about as a result of a multitude of different factors which come together to decide some of the fundamentals about one organism's attraction to another. The way it's expressed differs dramatically depending on the social and cultural systems present in which someone is raised but this notion of a predetermined gendered attraction is fairly constant throughout and extend throughout the natural world.

The only thing an ex-gay program does to 'change' someone is make them feel so horrifically bad about who they really are (through emotional abuse and sometimes even shock therapy) that they cannot express it and the only way they can alleviate the anxiety and trauma induced at the hands of their abuser (i.e the program) is by pretending to be heterosexual. It's also part of why all 'successful' ex-gays are still associated with the program - you'd need the threat, even a subconscious one, of emotional trauma to be present in your life to prevent you from coming to the realisation of what had happened to you - and they also get to spread it and in so doing they affirm their beliefs until the abused becomes the abuser.

Never ever fall for anyone who tries to sell these ideas to you as they are no less than rapists and torturers of the soul, mind and heart.

[forbiddelust86]

The only thing an ex-gay program does to 'change' someone is make them feel so horrifically bad about who they really are (through emotional abuse and sometimes even shock therapy) that they cannot express it and the only way they can alleviate the anxiety and trauma induced at the hands of their abuser (i.e the program) is by pretending to be heterosexual.

Oh my fucking goodness.
Tell me this isn't true. SHOCK TREATMENT.
That is sickening.

[forbiddelust86]

I've been sitting online for hours reading about this 'ex-gay' stuff and I found this clip... it's fairly recent and some of you may of heard about the 'Kill the Gays' Bill in Uganda and how it's being supported by a man called Richard Cohen..
Well i think if you've got a spare 20 mins you should watch this:
http://www.feministing.com/archives/019252.html
and watch him get absolute shreds torn off him by a lesbian reporter. (Rachel Maddow is brilliant)

[Ash Rehn]

Probably because we (LGBT people) will always be a very small minority of the general population, so we'll always be the interesting science experiment in their fucking petri dish.

I'm sorry to be the one who has to break this to you, but many LGBT also participate in the evaluating and measuring of people across standards and norms. I have worked with many other gay men and lesbians who think nothing of referring to people as being "disordered" or having a "disorder", as if there is some agreement of what constitutes "normal" and "abnormal" behaviour. Perhaps it is no longer in reference to sexuality but in my opinion, such labelling and marginalising of people only leads to their further disempowerment and more of the sorts of problems we see on these forums.

This is a really interesting topic. However, I feel we may be drifting a bit off-topic from Ammonite's original thread, where she was grappling with some particular personal issues relating to her own sexuality, ex-gay theology, and the "can I ever turn straight" question.

Might be worth starting a new thread for this one.

For clarity, let me return to Ammonite's postings...

To be honest I have religious issues sometimes anyway, separate to any gay stuff, because I am Agnostic.

I guess the more bothersome/appealing part of the ex gay movement is the stuff based on psychiatry and (sometimes) science.

If you or others reading this post have particular problems reconciling issues of Christian faith with sexuality, you might like to check out the forums on this site which is a LGBT supportive site for people from fundamentalist Christian backgrounds.

http://www.freedom2b.org/

Back in history, communities made decisions about what was appropriate and what was not according to weather, seasons and nature. Then along came religion. Priests and ministers decided what was acceptable and what was not. Sometime last century, the doctors and scientists took over. It may surprise some people reading this thread to find out that the word "normal" only began to be applied to people in the early 19th century and derives from the Latin word for a carpenter's square. So we have the introduction of people being measured scientifically against statistics.

Source:

http://books.google.com/books?id=TDi-l-bsBZoC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=normal+carpenter's+square+normality&source=bl&ots=atdQhymR_J&sig=kSQMQRR19NKsv1PI2aIbRVfRJuc&hl=en&ei=xh0hS_67JobA-QaG6YWzBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CCoQ6AEwCDge#v=onepage&q=normal%20carpenter's%20square%20normality&f=false

We have now moved into an era where 'science' and popular psychology encourages us to assess and evaluate ourselves against normative criteria. This is a fairly recent movement in human history as well ("Do I have a high self esteem?" "Am I too shy?" "Am I too needy? etc) I wonder, in the history of human evolution, who or what will next hold the power to decide and exclude people?


I don't even like the research that suggests that it is genetic or congenital, because then i still feel like it is some kind of disorder or disease that would need to be fixed if it was possible.
and if it is genetic what is going to happen when genetic screening becomes more popular?

So, Ammonite, what is it about Science that makes Science such an arbitrator of what should and shouldn't be? Even these words 'normal', 'natural', 'evidence' 'studies' etc show a bias towards Science now.

So we can swing between Science when we are asking questions about 'causes', or Religion where we are asking questions about 'morality' or wrong and right, good and bad etc, but in all these cases we are coming from a point of view that same sex attraction is somehow unacceptable.

I am often asked by clients whether I support the nature or nurture camp in the nature / nurture debate about homosexuality. "What about past lives?" I say, to throw in another example. "Maybe we were gay in a past life!" And then I ask "What about questioning the question?"

Do we ever ask these questions about the cause of Heterosexuality? Or the morality of it?

What I am suggesting here is that rather than just asking these questions, look at the position you are taking when you are asking them. In asking questions about the reasons / causes of sexuality, are you strengthening this idea that being LGBT is ok or diminishing it?

[Baby]

says the woman who's status reads "turning straight because women are evil. I will watch Twilight 487 times until I become straight" :p

ROFLOL well I was talking about YOU, not me :D Who needs ex gay ministries when you have those yummy Twilight boys....ooh just thinking about it is making me all hetero!!!!


see that is what i have been thinking has happened to me, in a chain of unfortunate events - http://www.samesame.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=190104&postcount=10. i'm afraid of what will happen if i come out properly as an adult.
what happened to these people you know?


I know of people who came out, and lost all their friends and family and were ostracised for being gay. Then their relationships didn't work out (I think some gay people think coming out will suddenly bring them the perfect relationship) and there are some who killed themselves. It's terrible, because staying in the closet is not really a better option and also leads to depression.

I was in love with a married closet case, I don't think she'll ever come out but I can understand why. Why give up the perfect hetero image and social acceptance?

Some food for thought...in South Africa you would have a damn good reason for wanting to be straight: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,579620,00.html?test=latestnews

[ammonite]

Some food for thought...in South Africa you would have a damn good reason for wanting to be straight: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,579620,00.html?test=latestnews
humans can be so discusting.


I'm sorry to be the one who has to break this to you, but many LGBT also participate in the evaluating and measuring of people across standards and norms. I have worked with many other gay men and lesbians who think nothing of referring to people as being "disordered" or having a "disorder", as if there is some agreement of what constitutes "normal" and "abnormal" behaviour. Perhaps it is no longer in reference to sexuality but in my opinion, such labelling and marginalising of people only leads to their further disempowerment and more of the sorts of problems we see on these forums.

For clarity, let me return to Ammonite's postings...

If you or others reading this post have particular problems reconciling issues of Christian faith with sexuality, you might like to check out the forums on this site which is a LGBT supportive site for people from fundamentalist Christian backgrounds.

http://www.freedom2b.org/

Back in history, communities made decisions about what was appropriate and what was not according to weather, seasons and nature. Then along came religion. Priests and ministers decided what was acceptable and what was not. Sometime last century, the doctors and scientists took over. It may surprise some people reading this thread to find out that the word "normal" only began to be applied to people in the early 19th century and derives from the Latin word for a carpenter's square. So we have the introduction of people being measured scientifically against statistics.

Source:

http://books.google.com/books?id=TDi-l-bsBZoC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=normal+carpenter's+square+normality&source=bl&ots=atdQhymR_J&sig=kSQMQRR19NKsv1PI2aIbRVfRJuc&hl=en&ei=xh0hS_67JobA-QaG6YWzBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CCoQ6AEwCDge#v=onepage&q=normal%20carpenter's%20square%20normality&f=false

We have now moved into an era where 'science' and popular psychology encourages us to assess and evaluate ourselves against normative criteria. This is a fairly recent movement in human history as well ("Do I have a high self esteem?" "Am I too shy?" "Am I too needy? etc) I wonder, in the history of human evolution, who or what will next hold the power to decide and exclude people?

So, Ammonite, what is it about Science that makes Science such an arbitrator of what should and shouldn't be? Even these words 'normal', 'natural', 'evidence' 'studies' etc show a bias towards Science now.

So we can swing between Science when we are asking questions about 'causes', or Religion where we are asking questions about 'morality' or wrong and right, good and bad etc, but in all these cases we are coming from a point of view that same sex attraction is somehow unacceptable.

I am often asked by clients whether I support the nature or nurture camp in the nature / nurture debate about homosexuality. "What about past lives?" I say, to throw in another example. "Maybe we were gay in a past life!" And then I ask "What about questioning the question?"

Do we ever ask these questions about the cause of Heterosexuality? Or the morality of it?

What I am suggesting here is that rather than just asking these questions, look at the position you are taking when you are asking them. In asking questions about the reasons / causes of sexuality, are you strengthening this idea that being LGBT is ok or diminishing it?

We ask because we’re human beings and we search for truth. That’s part of what makes us human.

But I understand your point. I can't see any logical moral reason why homosexuality is wrong, so then should it really matter to me personally what causes it? And by asking the question am I creating/reinforcing the idea that it is immoral?

I think in some ways science has become a religion. They are both basically expressions of the human urge to explain things and find truth.

The reason people decided science would be a better basis for society is that at least with science, if there is new evidence, eventually people will concede they were wrong and come up with a new theory to fit it.

With religion, if there is new evidence, the person who found it is burnt at the stake. You are not supposed to question.

But people have forgotten that science isn't supposed to be followed without question like a religion. That absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Science doesn't know everything - which is actually the point of its existence.

My personal experience means I just can’t dismiss the fringe ex gay pseudo-scientists. It’s hard to describe how difficult it is when you have a disease so new that the majority of the medical establishment does not believe in it. BUT I am slowly being vindicated by science.
Science is flawed but it is still the best thing I know.

But with that experience I should know better than most not to fret so much about what science says about you. Thanks for reminding me Ash.

[Ash Rehn]

We ask because we’re human beings and we search for truth. That’s part of what makes us human.


So what about your Truth Ammonite?

Humans are meaning makers. We are constantly trying to explain to ourselves and make meaning from our experiences and the meanings we make are unique to us because none of us have the same combinations of experiences.

So we might be bullied and harassed at school and when it keeps happening the connection or meaning we make is that we begin to believe we deserve it, that we did something wrong by being ourselves. Or we might find ourselves surrounded by people having relationships with the 'opposite' sex who are telling us we should be doing the same and at the same time we feel miserable when we see these couples having fun and excluding us, and so we start thinking there might be a connection between fun and heterosexuality that we are missing out on.

So we start looking around us for confirmation of our hypotheses (is this not the scientific method!)

Most people are the recipients of Science. We read about it in the newspaper or we are told about it by our doctors. We believe because the scientist / doctor / researcher / expert said it and they did the research that they must know (perhaps a little like 'well the priest said so and he knows the bible / has a relationship with God, so he must know).

But where is your Truth in this?

Throughout this thread there have been quotes from scientists & researchers and ex-gay proponents and occasionally you have mentioned your own experience. It reads a little like you have discarded various theories on account of them not according with your own experience, or taken more notice of others where they fit with your own experience.

I'm curious about this approach. When is the experience and knowledge and values of others being given preference over your own experience and knowledge and values?

I, like you, are pro-questioning. But a capable scientist does not just do literature reviews does she? She does her own research. It sounds like you reflect on what you read and hear and you obviously value evidence. But what about your own evidence? Your knowledge as an insider?

We can be our own researchers and I encourage you to do this.
(Although I'm not sure what the research question is here, perhaps "How can I feel better about myself?" or "How to cure these bad feelings I have?")
Sometimes the search for Truth can feel lonely and be frustrating (I think of all those people who have devoted their lives trying to cure cancer or HIV). As a result most scientists usually work collaboratively with peers be they co-researchers, assistants or professional supervisors.

This research approach is taken by some therapists who see themselves not as advisors but co-researchers with the people who consult with them. Therapy gets a lot of (deserved) criticism on account of the fact that most of it takes a didactic approach- the psychoanalyst as teacher / expert for example.

But it is not all like that.

Here is a news article about what I mean when I talk about therapy as co-research (or should it be co-research as therapy!)
http://www.unitec.ac.nz/?16F102B0-145E-6A3C-6E68-6762A569383A

There are other practitioners who practice in this way here:
http://www.dulwichcentre.com.au/narrative-connections/Australia.html

Where might you find collaborators in your search to find your own truth? (Or will you be satisfied adopting someone elses?)

Oh and by the way, I was diagnosed with CFS in 1990 and experienced the symptoms for about 2 years or more. At the time very few medical practitioners believed in it. And when I did find a GP who treated people for CFS, he was using some dangerous and unethical practices! I remember my life at this time became more and more about finding my own truth and gathering evidence for what worked for me to feel better rather than relying what the 'experts' or professionals were saying.

[ammonite]

my truth - you believe there is more than one?

So we start looking around us for confirmation of our hypotheses (is this not the scientific method!) hahahahaha

Most people are the recipients of Science. We read about it in the newspaper or we are told about it by our doctors. We believe because the scientist / doctor / researcher / expert said it and they did the research that they must know (perhaps a little like 'well the priest said so and he knows the bible / has a relationship with God, so he must know).true very true

Throughout this thread there have been quotes from scientists & researchers and ex-gay proponents and occasionally you have mentioned your own experience. It reads a little like you have discarded various theories on account of them not according with your own experience, or taken more notice of others where they fit with your own experience.no i dont think i have actually discarded anything, i am more just thinking out loud.

I'm curious about this approach. When is the experience and knowledge and values of others being given preference over your own experience and knowledge and values?i don't know, i've never had a mental breakdown before. haha.
i guess it depends on how confident i feel about the knowledge and values i have, which is sometimes not very. and then the values and opinions of people i respect and love get some kind of extra value in my mind.

I, like you, are pro-questioning. But a capable scientist does not just do literature reviews does she? She does her own research.well i was thinking about trying some of the ex gay treatments, but people keep telling me how they are dangerous.

It sounds like you reflect on what you read and hear and you obviously value evidence. But what about your own evidence? Your knowledge as an insider?you're right i should pay that more respect

But it is not all like that.

Here is a news article about what I mean when I talk about therapy as co-research (or should it be co-research as therapy!)
http://www.unitec.ac.nz/?16F102B0-145E-6A3C-6E68-6762A569383A

There are other practitioners who practice in this way here:
http://www.dulwichcentre.com.au/narrative-connections/Australia.html

Where might you find collaborators in your search to find your own truth? (Or will you be satisfied adopting someone elses?)thanks for that, it looks really interesting

Oh and by the way, I was diagnosed with CFS in 1990 and experienced the symptoms for about 2 years or more. At the time very few medical practitioners believed in it. And when I did find a GP who treated people for CFS, he was using some dangerous and unethical practices! I remember my life at this time became more and more about finding my own truth and gathering evidence for what worked for me to feel better rather than relying what the 'experts' or professionals were saying.i wasn't diagnoses until 1999. no one believed in it even then, at least in regional qld. i have also been to some terrible quack doctors. even now in 2009 doctors will look at me when i say i have cfs like 'oh you're one of them'.
really great article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/21/opinion/21johnson.html?scp=1&sq=A%20Case%20of%20chronic%20denial,%20hillary%20j ohnson&st=cse

[Ash Rehn]

my truth - you believe there is more than one?

Have you not considered that there might be?
Who determines Truth? Who makes these Truth Claims?

If it is Science or scientists, what happens when the experience of someone does not fit with what Science is telling them? Or when something previously 'proved' by science is shown to have flaws or mistakes? In these situations, whose claim to the Truth is valid?

Both Science and Religion usually resort to making truth claims based on their own particular biases. 'Ex-gay' therapy relies on this same idea that there is only one truth, just like the dogma of religion and the cognitive bias of science.

But is it possible there might be a relativism to this idea of Truth?

Here is an interesting site for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativism

Thanks for the link about CFS. This period of my life was one where I really began to trust my own experience because the scientific claims did not accord with what I felt and I was not getting better.

[Happy to be me]

I had a crap childhood but i knew i was gay from at least 8rs old I admire all the people who come out to their friends and families!

Life may really suck now but hold on something amazing may be around the corner!

P.S suicide is hard to do and if you survive it your life may be harder emotionally and physically!!!
Lily xo

[ammonite]

The way it's expressed differs dramatically depending on the social and cultural systems present in which someone is raisedwhat do you mean?

The only thing an ex-gay program does to 'change' someone is make them feel so horrifically bad about who they really are (through emotional abuse and sometimes even shock therapy) that they cannot express it and the only way they can alleviate the anxiety and trauma induced at the hands of their abuser (i.e the program) is by pretending to be heterosexual. It's also part of why all 'successful' ex-gays are still associated with the program - you'd need the threat, even a subconscious one, of emotional trauma to be present in your life to prevent you from coming to the realisation of what had happened to you - and they also get to spread it and in so doing they affirm their beliefs until the abused becomes the abuser.that's an interesting and persuasive explination of it[/QUOTE]

[ammonite]

Have you not considered that there might be?
Who determines Truth? Who makes these Truth Claims?

If it is Science or scientists, what happens when the experience of someone does not fit with what Science is telling them? Or when something previously 'proved' by science is shown to have flaws or mistakes? In these situations, whose claim to the Truth is valid?

Both Science and Religion usually resort to making truth claims based on their own particular biases. 'Ex-gay' therapy relies on this same idea that there is only one truth, just like the dogma of religion and the cognitive bias of science.

But is it possible there might be a relativism to this idea of Truth?

Here is an interesting site for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativism

thank you, i have heard of those ideas before at some point, i still don't really agree with them.

i think some things are definately subjective like the beauty of a piece of art.

but i think there are things that have only one true answer. i respect other people's opinions, but if we disagree someone has to be wrong.
even if bias prevents the real truth from being found, it still exists.