Tim's Comments - commenting on them

[guru_g]

1. I am the co-founder and owner of this website

I want to respond to the comments you made on the other thread - but that seems not the right place and it has all gone crazy anyway. So sad..

Okay, I see you are the co-founder and owner - I got a print out from an info broker through ASIC which had about 6 Directors names and addresses. So I thought they owned it, not you. Maybe it's more complex than that.

The reason is only because it is really difficult to know who to address complaints to in order to get effective action. So that's cleared up.

2. I am also one of the moderators

Okay, that's also cleared up.

3. I find it quite humorous that you are so aware of an "official complaint" emailed to me by Urban after he was banned from this site. You are almost too familiar with it. I hardly think that I'm going to fire myself or that "my job is hanging in the balance" lol.

If these completely false facts are indicative of your other arguments, then I'm starting to doubt why I even bother reading them.

If that's all false - about your job being on the line etc. - than that's someone on the other thread really taking it too far to make a point. If you can't be fired then obviously those comments were wrong - I don't think people should be saying stuff like that about you unless it is true.

Same Same is generally self-moderated. We like the fact that people can talk freely, within reason, without us interfering too much. Our users report things out of line to us, and we act on it more often than not. I could give you a list of hundreds of posts that we have altered, deleted and edited, but we've all got better things to do.

Tim this is simply not true and not acceptable for a professional site linked to a public business - linked to the public face of a business that needs a certain currency and stature within the Gay community to continue to drive dollars through the door.

SameSame is not self moderated. Self moderation is when one or more members see that another member has gone too far/broken the rules/is about to bring the community into disrepute...and actually does something about it.

No-one does that on SameSame. You have a core "clique" of posters who talk to each other - and sometimes post things that SameSame/Sound Alliance should not be wanting their advertisers to see on this site - and everybody else (who doesn't get disillusioned and cancel their account) is fair game.

I've reported multiple posts that clearly breach your own guidelines. Not borderline cases - just black and white examples - and you do nothing about those posts. They stay on the Forums.

When I initially asked for help from some of the most vile insults made against a member of these Forums, I got a snappy, rude email back which was no help at all. In effect blaming me. That is not how you moderate a forum.

I'm only talking about me at the moment - but when you look at the wider problems, it all starts with a lack of moderation'. Even some of the "humorous comments" made by LB etc., are so foul that are indefensible against the telecommunications act and to the broader general public. Plus, how would certain conservative image-conscious advertisers feel about being confronted with their logo placement again some of the posts I am talking about. It's an open forum - anyone can see these posts, they are not locked off from the general public.

The funny thing is that the only time the site really needs to be moderated is when the same old posters start talking about HIV, ACON and BGF. Same Same is not the place for you to air your conspiracy theories. Once again, this is not because of what you are saying, it is how you say it.


Sorry Tim, but I completely disagree. The site needs to be moderated all the time. All large forums do - particularly those attached to businesses because of the potential damaging effect to the brand of the business and potential legal action - both from individuals but also from telecommunications legislation that has been breached.

The ACON/BGF mega-fights are the symptom, not the disease. The disease is the lack of moderation on SameSame Forums - all of them. If you do not have the time to moderate the forum properly, what about appointing a 'panel of trusted helper/moderators.' to take the pressure off of SameSame's staff? It's been done very successfully all over the world. The key is choosing the correct people that aren't part of the existing problem.

SameSame has 6 (I think) directors who are legally responsible for anything that happens on this site. I don't know who they are but surely they would not be happy about certain incidents and posts on the site being seen in Gay press, Daily Telegraph, sent to key advertisers and so on? If the posts I'm talking about were held under the light of say Channel 7, Channel 9, Daily Tele...even Star Observer/SX...it could ruin your business.

To give you a mild example: there's a popular thread about a 40ish year old man chasing a teenage boy who he didn't even know was Gay initially. It goes on for pages. Just take that one thread and hold it up against community standards, Government standards, good business standards. What would the media and wider general public make of that complete thread? And that's just one mild example.

If these "new" posters keep it up and have no respect for the moderators and other posters on this site, then we will ban them. It's pretty plain and simple. It's a privilege to post on those forums, not a right, and if you don't have any respect for the other people on here, then feel free to go and talk about your topics amongst yourselves, but this is not the place for you. Of course, this will be twisted into being us censoring you, without you realising that you have solely brought this upon yourselves.


I don't know much about the history of previous posters and previously fought battles. I do know that SameSame allows a lot of fake profiles - like The English Teacher, Mr. Piss. Martha Stewart etc. - I think this is a bad thing - bad for the health of the forums but also potentially bad for SameSame/SoundAlliance. It lets even more anonymous and problematic comment/content be added to the Forums. It also sets an precedent for other people - maybe those who have been aggrieved - to do the same as a way of "getting their own back." It's unhealthy.

I don't believe you should be warning JUST these "new posters" you refer to whilst protecting the ("old") people deliberately stir up trouble around these "new posters."


This is final warning to these "new" posters that have popped up in this thread.

There are a comprehensive set of rules and guidelines for SameSame Forums - they are very, very well written. As someone who has run forums, e-mailing lists etc. before, my first impression when looking at them was "someone really knows their stuff here."

But those rules are never adhered to, never administered and implemented by SameSame staff. When a forum member goes feral and starts hurling abusive language at another forum member..(1) reporting the post doesn't work because nothing is done..but (2) it should never get to that stage - as soon as the "shit hits the fan", there need to be people there who calmly step in, remove offensive/defamatory material and calmly remind everyone of the the Community rules.

You talk about 100s of posts you have deleted - but see, that's the thing: you do that in a completely inconsistent basis. Each member of the forum needs to be treated fairly and equally by the owners/operators of SameSame. Otherwise there is no privilege in posting on the forums.

I now have several months experience of seeing what does get cut and what doesn't, when you or the other guys step in and (mostly) when you don't. And it is always done to protect a small, clique-ish group of SameSame members at the expense of everyone else. There is no consistency, no fairness.

In my case, it took me two faxes, 3 PMs, several post reports and an express post letter - and still the offensive and defamatory language was not removed. I simply received a bitchy email / PM back from Christian saying "dont use our trademark again" whatever that meant.

Early on I was told by Christian dismissively "We have appropriate systems in place." Yes, you do but you never use them! What is the point of having rules that aren't enforced and a "report post" button that isn't acted upon.

SameSame Forums has a relatively small bunch of regular posters - hundreds of others have come and gone. Consider the potential size of the market. Can you imagine how many more active members of the Forum there would be if the Community rules were actually enforced? So that there were no foul insults, defamatory comments, ganging-up, bullying allowed.

SameSame has no competition in this non-sexual, let's chat and be friends, space on the Australian internet. The Forums could be sooo much bigger.

More members....driving more hits....driving more business to SameSame...driving more hits into figures that can be quoted and sold to media-buyers/advertisers for higher rates.

Monitoring the forums properly would be a lot of work and I understand if you are short staffed - but consider the "panel of moderators" idea to take the pressure off you.

I was so excited to join SameSame...the philosophy, the community guidelines...it all sounded so wonderful. But I (and many others) have experienced that none of it is true.

How about restarting the clock and making it true. Instead of catering to a small group of "elite clique members" who are incapable of self-regulation, making SameSame Forums a safe place for everyone in the GLBTI communities?

I write this in good faith.

[Mann]

http://i44.tinypic.com/5dw9au.jpg

A cute pug in a tweed hat. To brighten your day. This thread scares me.

[Mama Catastrophe]

SameSame is not self moderated. Self moderation is when one or more members see that another member has gone too far/broken the rules/is about to bring the community into disrepute...and actually does something about it.
This does happen. In a thread the other day several posters tried to get another poster to reconsider his use of the word "coon" when referring to black people - from memory you tried to defend his use of the word as you believed he was using it "ironically". Other posters also PM each other about posts they have made - Mama has personally received at least three PMs from fellow posters suggesting she modify her posts and has sent at least 8 to others suggesting they may have gone too far. We have also self moderated about swearing and nudity in the forums and placing NSFW on links or threads that might raise eyebrows if viewed at people workplaces. Concerning the posts where you claim to have been abused by other posters - the reason other posters haven' t stepped in to ask the original poster to modify their post, in Mama opinion, is that as you have made yourself quite unpopular with many people, there would be few who really cared what you were called - Sorry but true

I'm only talking about me at the moment - but when you look at the wider problems, it all starts with a lack of moderation'. Even some of the "humorous comments" made by LB etc., are so foul that are indefensible against the telecommunications act and to the broader general public.
The things that LB comes out with are no worse than what many highly paid comedians use in their acts each and every day - very few people here take LB's dark humor to heart. Its also funny how you never seemed to have an issue with LB's posts until he called you up on certain behavior - bit of revenge maybe?

The ACON/BGF mega-fights are the symptom, not the disease. The disease is the lack of moderation on SameSame Forums - all of them.
No - the disease on this site is people who are so easily offended that they begin threatening lawsuits just because some one called them a bad name.Get a grip - in the real world people have heated discussions all the time and sometimes they lead to personal attacks. Not an ideal thing but for the majority of us we just shake it off and move on. Why are you so concerned with what someone calls you on an internet thread?

As someone who has run forums, e-mailing lists etc. before
Can Mama suggest you go back to them and leave us alone - we are obviously not what you want so why stay any longer?

You talk about 100s of posts you have deleted - but see, that's the thing: you do that in a completely inconsistent basis. Each member of the forum needs to be treated fairly and equally by the owners/operators of SameSame. Otherwise there is no privilege in posting on the forums.

I now have several months experience of seeing what does get cut and what doesn't, when you or the other guys step in and (mostly) when you don't. And it is always done to protect a small, clique-ish group of SameSame members at the expense of everyone else. There is no consistency, no fairness.
Surely this is just an assumption based around the fact that they didn't delete a post you wanted deleted - unless of course you're claiming that you are somehow privy to what the mods delete. Word of advice - dont make accusations you cant back up - surely someone with such a seemingly litigious nature as yours should know that? For the record Mama can think of a case where one very very popular poster was moderated and eventually banned for thier posts.

SameSame Forums has a relatively small bunch of regular posters - hundreds of others have come and gone. Consider the potential size of the market. Can you imagine how many more active members of the Forum there would be if the Community rules were actually enforced? So that there were no foul insults, defamatory comments, ganging-up, bullying allowed.
Same Same is no different to any other internet forum. They have a core group of posters that changes as older ones move on and younger ones move in. Sure some people have left because they didn't like the way the forums were going but for the majority of members of Same Same who don't post, Mama would say that the reason would be that they are just not into posting on forums - simple. Not everybody who joins a site will become involved in the forums --not because of all the crap you mentioned- they dont post coz its not their thing.

I write this in good faith.
Sorry Mama doesn't believe this. In her opinion you are still just trying to flog that dead horse of yours from when you claimed you were called all these terrible names. You use any opportunity you can to bring up the alleged bullying and name calling you suffered at the evil elite clique of posters and their pack mentality ways and its getting tiresome. If you shut up for 5 minutes you might be stunned to hear the silence around you coz nobody else is complaining - just you. So why don't you just give it a rest and try not to be so thin skinned or go start this Utopian forum where you can reign supreme and create this wonderful space you keep banging on about. Sure Same Same isnt perfect but try and look past its flaws. Look at the good things the site is achieving. Look at the threads where people who are having a bad day can vent and get words of support from people they have never even met. Look at the kids getting advice on all things gay. Look at the kids sharing their coming out stories. Look at the threads that are just so silly they make you smile. Just enjoy the good things on the site and ignore what you consider bad. Its only an internet forum FFS and you really need to ask yourself why a few inconsequential names and comments being thrown at you is effecting you this much - just get over it!

Feel free to report this post to a moderator. In fact Mama will do it herself.
Tim can you please moderate Mama?

[guru_g]

Can Mama suggest you go back to them and leave us alone - we are obviously not what you want so why stay any longer?

Think of two words - "Don Chipp" and his oft repeated phrase.

Same Same is no different to any other internet forum. They have a core group of posters that changes as older ones move on and younger ones move in. Sure some people have left because they didn't like the way the forums were going but for the majority of members of Same Same who don't post, Mama would say that the reason would be that they are just not into posting on forums - simple. Not everybody who joins a site will become involved in the forums --not because of all the crap you mentioned- they dont post coz its not their thing.

Okay, you have clearly stated your belief. I disagree with it 100%


Sorry Mama doesn't believe this. In her opinion you are still just trying to flog that dead horse of yours from when you claimed you were called all these terrible names. You use any opportunity you can to bring up the alleged bullying and name calling you suffered at the evil elite clique of posters and their pack mentality ways and its getting tiresome. If you shut up for 5 minutes you might be stunned to hear the silence around you coz nobody else is complaining - just you. So why don't you just give it a rest and try not to be so thin skinned or go start this Utopian forum where you can reign supreme and create this wonderful space you keep banging on about.

Being defamed, attacked and bullied and receiving no assistance from the owners/moderators of "SameSame" might be a "dead horse" to you, but it isn't to me. I will continue to bring up these issues every time I see it happening to me or anyone else in the Forum.

Sure Same Same isn't perfect but try and look past its flaws. Look at the good things the site is achieving.

Absolutely not, absolutely not. I personally believe that posters like you are one of the key reasons that hold SameSame / SameSame Forums back from becoming all they could be.

SameSame says it is about
* Same Same is building Australia's most vibrant gay and lesbian online community, united by common goals but rich with diversity.
* Same Same aims to support and empower gay Australia to connect with each other, stay well informed and project a unified front to the rest of the country.
* Same Same represents everything that being gay and lesbian in Australia right now stands for - the freedom, the fun, the strive for equality and the hope.
* Same Same intends to play an integral role in shaping and leading gay Australia by reflecting the views and attitudes of the scene it represents.

====================

It can and will never achieve this whilst the forums remain unmoderated and people like you are allowed to vilify, defame, harrass and attack people like me. I use "you" as an example - just one example of many.

Just enjoy the good things on the site and ignore what you consider bad. Its only an internet forum FFS and you really need to ask yourself why a few inconsequential names and comments being thrown at you is effecting you this much - just get over it!

I wonder if that's what they used to say to people pre workplace harrassment policies being introduced? I wonder if that's what they used to say to kids being called 'faggot' and bullied at school prior to anti-bullying policies being introduced? I wonder if that's what they used to say members of ethnic groups etc. prior to anti-discrimination laws coming in? "Just Get Over It."

Well, if being vilified, abused and defamed by people on this Forum has done one thing to me, it is this: I am at my best when my back is against the wall. What has happened over the last couple of months has galvanised me and focussed me. I'm on a mission to make SameSame Forums and safe place for all members of the GLBTI community.

And ironically, one of the things that has galvanised me is the original aims of SameSame - they are fantastic and worthy aims. SameSame has no peer in this regard. When I first came here I believed in those words and aims 100%. I want to see SameSame actually BE what it set outs to be in those "what we are about" words.


Feel free to report this post to a moderator. In fact Mama will do it herself.
Tim can you please moderate Mama?

Again, a perfect example of what I have been talking about all along. And again, the reason why I stay here and will continue to stay here for as long as I can. Your tactic (and it is unfair I keep saying 'you' - I mean a generic 'you' as in all the posters who have been involved) is to try and shut down and shut out people who don't fit into your own 'clique' version of SameSame. "You" use abuse, humiliation, sarcasm, isolation and all the other tools of the classic "bully" to try and shut down things you don't want to hear/acknowledge. The "yous" have tried (and continue to try) to make me feel sub-human.

In a well moderated forum, Tim (and I use his name because I don't know any other staffer who is responsible) would have stepped in ages ago when this gang mentality began to manifest itself and said quite clearly and strongly: "Okay guys, this is out of line, this is not the sort of thing we want happening on SameSame. We want everyone to have a fair go here and to be treated with respect. That's what SameSame is all about."

And anyone who continued with the same behaviour would have been "Sin-Binned" for a couple of weeks. That sets limits on how far people can go, that moderates what is acceptable on the forum. Early, consistent intervention keeps a Forum alive, healthy and ensures it doesn't become an unsafe place for anyone.

============

Finally, apart from all the techniques you used in your post to demonise me, I think your post was very well written and clearly set out.

[Mann]

http://i40.tinypic.com/t5h8wh.jpg

Oh hi guru. Do you hate me? :( Am I apart of this clique problem? I've run into so many samesamers whilst at gaybars. I've even gone out with a bunch of them like Phoenix and tried to hook her up with every lesbian that came along.


http://i43.tinypic.com/2daaa8h.jpg

I think SameSame is a good site and I like it a lot. I like it like I like this cat. Massively! Although there are bad stuff, there are lots of good stuff. I've come to call it my new internet home. Please don't sue my internet home. I kind of live there.


http://i44.tinypic.com/54up3l.jpg

A completely censored environment and heavily moderated one which you speak of - that's not an ideal gay community. That's a very uniform one where people can't call each other out and talk clashingly. I think this is important. Bells and I disagreed on the Archibald. Very strongly so. We're going out to the next one together and like each other more for having differing points of view. I think in lieu of what you're proposing, my posts would have been labelled an "attack" and I would have been banned.

With the advertising thing and all this "business", adjusting expression to pander to your advertisers is the worst and most spineless thing to do. I used to write words for a video games syndication. I gave this video game 5/10, a passing mark for what was a mediocre package. I had to bump it up to a 7/10 because the publisher put ads on the website. We could never poo poo the publishers because they were our bread and butter and access and Gods. It was a horrible place and I left. I typed in "gay sydney" and found SameSame. I like SameSame for not being like this.

I have work now.

[guru_g]

Oh hi guru. Do you hate me? :( Am I apart of this clique problem?

No I don't hate you, why would I? But if being my "friend" on this site is bad for your "street cred", just remove me, I won't take it personally!


A completely censored environment and heavily moderated one which you speak of - that's not an ideal gay community. That's a very uniform one where people can't call each other out and talk clashingly. I think this is important.


I'm not sure how many forums you have been a part of but I am not talking about a censored environment or heavily moderated one at all. I am talking about a Forum that contributes to SameSame's vision statement, mission and lives by the Community Guidelines that are set out by SameSame for the Forum.

People clash and joust all the time on internet forums around the world. But that's different to endemic character assassinations, bullying, vilification and defamation. Very different. You can have an open, vigorous, fun forum without allowing the other stuff.

There can be no freedom of speech without responsibility.

I think in lieu of what you're proposing, my posts would have been labelled an "attack" and I would have been banned.


No, that is not corect.

With the advertising thing and all this "business", adjusting expression to pander to your advertisers is the worst and most spineless thing to do. ........I like SameSame for not being like this.

Again, you are missing the point I am making. SameSame is a business - it isn't a personal forum funded by a guy who has a lot of money and just wanted to run a free forum for the Gays. SameSame is a business, part of SoundAlliance. Businesses live and die on their income and expenses. Their profits and their losses.

More than just a local, small business, SameSame/SoundAlliance is a corporation under ASIC's rules. It has a board of directors, lodges an ASIC return every year as well as numerous other documents that need to be legally lodged under Australian Corporate Law.

Advertising is a big part of SameSame's income. It needs it to survive. Not just advertising of Gay events, ACON etc. but advertising from mainstream companies and media buyers. SameSame is offering it's web traffic & unique "hits" to these companies to get a share of their online media buy. SameSame is also offering it's reputation and its brand. It needs to be very aware of issues that affect its reputation and brand.

And to put it in terms that everyone should be able to understand: running the forums costs money. Big money. Web design & maintenance, web hosting. staff salaries, administration.....SameSame needs money to make sure the Forums can be paid for and keep going. So they have to be aware of stuff on the Forums that could lead to a loss of advertisers, a loss of that income. It is also in every forum members' interest to make sure that SameSame's reputation and branding is not damaged.

More than anything, this is what surprises me about what has happened and continues to be allowed to happen on the Forums. Making sure the Forums are effectively moderated should be a priority for the sake of the business at least.

[Totka]

Guru, are you not exhausted by this. I am and all I have done is read your posts. I appreciate the hurt that you feel you have experienced by peoples reactions to you on these forums and I value your desire to create a "safe place" for all on this site. unfortunately mate there are no safe places anywhere. That is a fact of life. All you do in this process is open yourself to more criticism. I'm not going to tell you to let it go, thats your choice, but, I will ask you to think whether the effort to spend in this campaign could be better used elsewhere in more positive pursuits.

[guru_g]

Guru, are you not exhausted by this. I am and all I have done is read your posts. I appreciate the hurt that you feel you have experienced by peoples reactions to you on these forums and I value your desire to create a "safe place" for all on this site. unfortunately mate there are no safe places anywhere. That is a fact of life. All you do in this process is open yourself to more criticism. I'm not going to tell you to let it go, thats your choice, but, I will ask you to think whether the effort to spend in this campaign could be better used elsewhere in more positive pursuits.

Thanks for this post. It's very well reasoned.

Exhausted? Yes, I was which I why I pulled back considerably a while ago. And I did think "is this really worth it? do you *really* want to take this on knowing the crap that's gonna be thrown at you again and again?"

And yes, it did make me take a deep breath and re-consider. Since then, I've seen more and more crap happen and I've also seen what's been allowed to happen to the BGF thread - which is probably the most important thread I've ever read on here.

So I guess I feel re-energised and ready for the fight. Yes, I'm gonna continue to get vilified, marginalised, humiliated, isolated by the usual suspects - and no doubt a few more who just wish I would shut up and let sleeping dogs lie.

But no, I'm not going to do that. I am going to be a "Don Chipp" in my own way. And the more I get attacked, the more energised I'm going to become.

But I do thank you for your very sensible post.

Oh, and I'm not sure if you or anyone has thought about this....

The one thing that could get me to voluntarily shut the f*** up and go about my business is the one thing that's *not* happened. There's been no addressing of the issues by the owners/managers of SameSame. There's been no acknowledgement at all. Not privately to me and certainly not publicly.

Not one single person from SameSame/Sound Alliance has even acknowledged the issues I've raised. Not one person from SameSame/Sound Alliance has taken anything on board at all.

[Barrin]

I have about a decade of experience on these sorts of boards although this is the first gay one I've had any prolonged participation on. I learnt quickly that the internet is a schoolyard where everybody has the opportunity to be the bully if they choose to. It seems to be the nature of the forums. Cliques? Again, it's an environment very conducive to that sort of thing. Moderation? It has it's place but very often the moderators are just another clique. Or are perceived to be. Then there are the 'do-nothing' moderators which is the complaint here.... who will be equally damned if they do in my experience.
I have 2 rules: Give out no personal information (someone will eventually use it against you). And don't cross over from cyber to real life. It might seem a great idea at the time but too often ends in embarrassment or misunderstanding which then returns to cyberspace as resentment and retaliation. I've seen it too many times.

[Mama Catastrophe]

You know what Guru - Mama did some long post here addressing your claims but after consideration shes taken it down because quite frankly you're not worth the effort. You just keep going with what you're doing until the sheer stupidity of your claims makes you the most disliked and ostracized poster on the site -then with a bit of luck you may leave

[Tim D]

Hi Guru,

I do need to point out that you are talking from your own experience only. The majority of the moderating that we do on Same Same happens without you realising it.

When something of a more pressing urgency comes to our attention by our users, we look at it on a case-by-case basis and decide the best course of action. Sometimes this is to close the thread, delete the thread, edit the post or simply leave it alone.

Sound Alliance as whole, of which Same Same is a subsidiary, has over 10 years of building and moderating forums, the knowledge of which we share amongst all of our vibrant communities. When we receive letters and communications like you sent to all Directors of Sound Alliance, then we respond. It is untrue to say that we did not respond to your last faxes and letters last month.

I thank you for your enthusiasm about Same Same.

Tim

[Mann]

http://i42.tinypic.com/esmgj7.jpg

[guru_g]

You know what Guru - Mama did some long post here addressing your claims but after consideration shes taken it down because quite frankly you're not worth the effort. You just keep going with what you're doing until the sheer stupidity of your claims makes you the most disliked and ostracized poster on the site -then with a bit of luck you may leave

Thanks for proving my points again and again and again.

You're consistent, I'll say that for you!

[xxxVioletxxx]

Firstly I have to say, Mann that Scottish Fold kitten is adorable! I love it and I wants one!

Secondly, guru_g didn't you also break the rules and post an unacceptable thread about another member here? Isn't that a form of bullying? Didn't you also harass someone from here in real life? Why is it okay for you to complain and not others for unacceptable behaviour?

Maybe I have the whole thing wrong, but I think it is time to give it a rest to save further embarassment.

[nickdisco]

Firstly I have to say, Mann that Scottish Fold kitten is adorable! I love it and I wants one!

Secondly, guru_g didn't you also break the rules and post an unacceptable thread about another member here? Isn't that a form of bullying? Didn't you also harass someone from here in real life? Why is it okay for you to complain and not others for unacceptable behaviour?

Maybe I have the whole thing wrong, but I think it is time to give it a rest to save further embarassment.


And thread of the day goes to ^^^

Lovely work.

( And yes I am taking a mental break from training to post.. I am an addict deal with it)

[guru_g]

Secondly, guru_g didn't you also break the rules and post an unacceptable thread about another member here? Isn't that a form of bullying?


No I didn't break the rules by posting two threads that I assume you are referring to. Certain people on here have "privileged status" - they can have anything - a thread, an individual posts etc. - removed instantly. The rest of us can be bullied, harrassed, vilified and defamed and there is no protection, no assistance from SameSame management/owners.

The first thread you may be referring to was a very complimentary thread about meeting another member of the forum at a pub. With a number of other people I might also add. It became a bit of a standing joke although I wasn't really sure why because the post was saying "I met this person and they're a really great person in real life."

The second thread you may be referring to was a parody thread I created as a result of another SameSame forum member wanting to do a podcast (using SameSame forum members talking, doing various segments etc.) Using mostly actual quotes said by people on the forum, I created a comedy dialogue which I called a "podcast transcript." It was completely over the top humour and meant to be enjoyed by the forum members.

Some people got the humour immediately, a few others did not get it and began to post abusive and vile comments about me. I complained about this on the thread and to SameSame management without success. I then asked for the whole thread to be removed after I was advised that it had upset some people by Christian. Despite me asking for it to be removed, this is what I got back:-

"We are removing the "Same Same podcast" thread entirely, and advise you in future to not use our brand name in this manner. We are also removing a post where you reveal user's real first names - again, a breach of guidelines.
"

So it's like suddenly it's *their* idea to remove the thread? And as far as using names on the thread - if you check Google - and even look at an old thread here - you will see that the users themselves have revealed not only their first names but their surnames as well. I've saved all of those posts as well.


Didn't you also harass someone from here in real life? Why is it okay for you to complain and not others for unacceptable behaviour?


No I did not. Are you directly stating that I did? If you are directly accusing me, please note that you are defaming me on a public forum.

A leader of the SameSame Bully Brigade - who SameSame owners have given complete immunity from accountability for the vile, vicious and slanderous posts they make on this forum, defamed me - according to legal advice I took some time ago - with this very same accusation.

I advised SameSame that I had been defamed and gave them details but they refused to remove the key post from the forum.

I have saved and pdf'd all of the posts involved, I have the person's real name and their other details and I have also saved and pdf'd a large number of other posts by the same person - posts that - again, according to legal advice - break both SameSame's Community rules and also the telecommunications act.

At the time, I took a deep breath and a step back from pursuing legal action. However I was advised to keep everything - posts, correspondence from SameSame management etc. as, should legal action happen in the future - the material will be very helpful as evidence.

The worst thing I have personally done on the forums is making a bitchy retort to a post by CrazzyMikey which used the f word a number of times. He threatened to report me to a moderator and I took offence at that threat. I regret that because I later met him and he is a great guy and we both had a laugh over the ridiculousness of it. I am usually a very good judge of character but on SameSame, the people I thought were terrific are actually very nasty individuals and vice versa.

I won't be "giving it a rest" as you suggest because it continues to happen. All of this could have been avoided very simply if SameSame appropriately moderated the forums. Or, if indeed, the "report post" actually resulted in timely action being taken.

[sneakos]

guru_g didn't you also break the rules and post an unacceptable thread about another member here? Isn't that a form of bullying? Didn't you also harass someone from here in real life? Why is it okay for you to complain and not others for unacceptable behaviour?

Maybe I have the whole thing wrong, but I think it is time to give it a rest to save further embarassment.

best response ever :D

Are you directly stating that I did? If you are directly accusing me, please note that you are defaming me on a public forum.


roflmao

if u dont like it here, or dont feel comfortable, or welcome, then perhaps have a look at ur own behaviour instead of maintaining this victim role

or

even simpler solution - dont be here

[guru_g]

even simpler solution - dont be here

I thought you were a social worker. An enlightened person.

But you can't seem to stop posting nasty things to me/about me.

Oh well, I'm not going to respond in kind. I don't believe in vilifying or attacking people on here.

[sneakos]

But you can't seem to stop posting nasty things to me/about me.



im not being nasty - simply stating th obvious:

if u dont like it - and feel liek ur being victimised, harassed, bullied, etc - then why continue to stay here and maintain th victim status

i would say th same to any person i work with who was presenting with th same situation - you are making a choice to be here, yet, from my observations, you continue to complain about the level of harassment from a 'clique' of posters

by simply maintaining this idea of a 'clique' that you believe that you are not a part of, you continue to maintain your position as an 'other'

and keep coming across this way

thats th bit about having a look at your own behaviour

you are making a choice to be here - and also making a choice about how you present here

there have only been two (2) other times iv confronted you:

1. when i challenged brightside and his use of th word 'coon' and stated 'take a wild guess champ', you jumped in to tell him that 'this is what happens on this site, its a standard tool of trade to harass people'. my reply to you was to call u a fucking idiot and tell u to fuck off, as you were wrong and had no idea what my motivation was (despite claiming to do so) in responding to brightside

2. when i challenged you in a thread that i saw as normalising sex with underage peeps, and ur response was to brush that aside with a comment about 'not living in some disney world, but this is what happens in the real world'

aside from that - i have not (in recollection) 'continued to post nasty things about you'

i simply offered an opinion - have a look at your own behaviour, or make a choice not to be here

disclaimer: if my quotes in th above to examples are not exact word for word then my apologies, cos i cant be fucked going back to search th threads to find th exact wording - but they are close enough


as for violets post above - i reckon she was rite on the money

[guru_g]

im not being nasty - simply stating th obvious:

if u dont like it - and feel liek ur being victimised, harassed, bullied, etc - then why continue to stay here and maintain th victim status

Well, primarily because of forum members like you.

Instead of trying to address the bullying, abuse and victimisation, you blame the victim.

That's wrong. It's happened to other people since I've been here too. So I'm going to stay here to point it out when it happens.

[sneakos]

Instead of trying to address the bullying, abuse and victimisation, you blame the victim.

no - im not blaming th victim, and in a case of bullying, abuse or victimisation i would not do so

i am suggesting that ur own construction of some kind of 'clique' that you believe exists, is simply that - a construction in your own mind, that allows you to maintain a role of an 'other' - being 'outside' th clique

you then use this position to justify to yourself as bullying, anyone who doesnt agree with you - whilst displaying th same behaviour in being critical of this alleged 'clique' that you are actually complaining about - its totally incongruent

[pioneer_to_the_falls]

Can you name forumers in this alleged clique?

Cause I think you're seeing a non-existant "SameSame Bully Brigade"...

[xxxVioletxxx]

guru_g, I think your perspective on things may be a little clouded. You seem like a very sad and lonely person. I hope you find happiness one day.

[shonen_android]

OMFG- I just found this thread completely by accident.
The thing that I love about guru g, is his his ability to embarrass himself in public better than anyone else, ever could.

[Phazz]

Can you name forumers in this alleged clique?

Cause I think you're seeing a non-existant "SameSame Bully Brigade"...

I've asked him the same question but he seems to ignore it.

It's easier to make veiled attacks on people by insinuating things rather than making a direct comment. If you have something to say, then have the balls to say it.

People can't be friends or friendly towards each other without being accused of things? This 'us vs them' mentality is seriously messed up.
Just because people don't take a shining to you or disagree with you on something, doesn't necessarily mean they are bullying you either. Maybe, just maybe you need to look at yourself before you start pointing fingers at other people. Grow up and have some self respect.

[Light-Bearer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS_TtSpNHsU

[guru_g]

People can't be friends or friendly towards each other without being accused of things? This 'us vs them' mentality is seriously messed up.


Wow, your M.O. is normally to encourage your clique buddies to do the personal attacks on me so you don't have blood on your hands. My, my, did you feel there wasn't enough viciousness being directed towards me recently? Thought you'd like to put the boot in yourself to get things moving again?

I believe you are and your clique buddies are the ones who are "seriously messed up." I believe that any person or group of people who deliberately and viciously personally attack people on this or any other forum are nothing more than common bullies and thugs.


Just because people don't take a shining to you or disagree with you on something, doesn't necessarily mean they are bullying you either.


A shining? A shining? Disagree? What are you talking about? I am and have been talking about vicious personal attacks, personal insults and defamatory comments made about me. It has nothing to do with people liking/not liking, agreeing/disagreeing with me. But I guess it is in your interests to minimise and dismiss what's been happening.


Maybe, just maybe you need to look at yourself before you start pointing fingers at other people. Grow up and have some self respect.

I've looked at myself and I've looked at people like you and your buddies with their vicious and personal attacks. I'm quite happy with who I am. Your idea of "growing up" and having "self respect" means encouraging and participating in attacking, vilifying and defaming people. I believe that's seriously messed up and and not much better than straights who make homophobic attacks on Gays & Lesbians.

The only thing I appreciated about your post is that you've finally shown your true colours on the Forum. No doubt you'll be getting kudos and big pats on the back from your buddies for it.

[Phazz]

Wow, your M.O. is normally to encourage your clique buddies to do the personal attacks on me so you don't have blood on your hands. My, my, did you feel there wasn't enough viciousness being directed towards me recently? Thought you'd like to put the boot in yourself to get things moving again?

I believe you are and your clique buddies are the ones who are "seriously messed up." I believe that any person or group of people who deliberately and viciously personally attack people on this or any other forum are nothing more than common bullies and thugs.



A shining? A shining? Disagree? What are you talking about? I am and have been talking about vicious personal attacks, personal insults and defamatory comments made about me. It has nothing to do with people liking/not liking, agreeing/disagreeing with me. But I guess it is in your interests to minimise and dismiss what's been happening.



I've looked at myself and I've looked at people like you and your buddies with their vicious and personal attacks. I'm quite happy with who I am. Your idea of "growing up" and having "self respect" means encouraging and participating in attacking, vilifying and defaming people. I believe that's seriously messed up and and not much better than straights who make homophobic attacks on Gays & Lesbians.

The only thing I appreciated about your post is that you've finally shown your true colours on the Forum. No doubt you'll be getting kudos and big pats on the back from your buddies for it.

You are talking about being defamed but you are the one defaming everyone on this forum with such slanderous accusations. Just remember it was you who:

- created a thread and posted a picture of Light-Bearer without their permission which then had to be deleted by moderators due to it being so creepy.

- told Sneakos to get over it when they shared something deeply personal and traumatic about his life.

- accused Synergism of attacking you when he disagreed about having a profile picture of himself.

- started harassing current and former members of same same, inthemix and sound alliance threatening to sue.

I repeat, look at your own actions before you start accusing other people. You are slandering everyone on this forum, but of course that's ok. You are innocent. Play the martyr, you do it so well. YOU are the bully. YOU are the thug. YOU are the one viciously attacking people. People are only reacting to YOUR actions which were and continue to be inappropriate and riddiculous.

[guru_g]

Wow! You should have been a lawyer or a celebrity agent with that brilliant selective use of information and the amazing spin you put on it.

You left out one other thing in my list of crimes against humanity - the comedy podcast transcript thread which I later asked to be deleted. You might as well be a completist when you're listing my crimes.

I do wonder though, with all spin and selective use of information taken out of the equation, showing a real lawyer the totality of the posts you are talking about and the vicious personal attacks I've received and continue to receive on the Forum....just what a lawyer might make of who actually has the legal case to make?

I still have the LB thread and pic - and since it was complimentary about him and used a nice photograph...along with the fact that there were lots of other pics of him on the Forum that people put up... And let's combine that with the fact that there's no legal basis for him or anyone to prevent having a bog standard photo of themselves put up on the internet in Australia.

Now if we look at LB's posts for say a three week period earlier this year....and showed them to a lawyer...I just wonder what the advice would be?

Yes I did tell Sneakos to get over something during a heated debate on an issue. I didn't attack him, vilify him, slander him or threaten him. No, that was and continues to be other forum members who do that to me. I think I've already sorted things out with Sneakos but I will say to Sneakos here publicly: what I said in that post was not meant to be insensitive but I think it did hurt you and for that I sincerely apologise. I met you at Stonewall and found you a delightful, fun, warm person - I wouldn't want to hurt or upset such a person.

Next up: apparently I "accused Synergism of attacking you when he disagreed about having a profile picture of himself." I don't remember that but will take your word for it. Apologies to Synergism if I attacked him, vilified him, slandered him or threatened him with my response. Somehow I don't think I did any of those things but anyway.....

You say I "started harassing current and former members of same same, inthemix and sound alliance threatening to sue." This is terrific spin - I'm really loving seeing the real Phazz come out from behind the curtain with these posts.

When these completely unacceptable personal attacks began, I did what was supposed to be done - reported the posts to the moderators via the facility provided.

Nothing happened for days.

The attacks continued and my level of frustration increased.

SameSame/SoundAlliance provided no assistance to me UNTIL I began mentioning legal action, sent PMs to everyone listed on their contact page and sent 2 faxes to the SameSame office.

Even then, the most that happened was that I got a couple of snarky emails back from Christian. There was (apparently) a post asking NickDisco & Flaneur not to comment directly to me on the Forums in future - but I never saw it as it wasn't pinned so it disappeared down the list of posts almost instantly.

I was advised that one of the directors of SameSame - Libby - would contact me to discuss the matter but that never happened. And that was the end of SameSame's owners/managers assistance.

So yes, I did seek legal advice and I did then make sure that I dealt immediately and vigilantly with any further personal attacks on me - and anyone else on the Forum.

There has been an improvement in SameSame management's action in these matters recently - I have to acknowledge that. But to get that improvement...what a price I've had to pay. And, the rest of the Forum too.

And every so often, when things are calming down, just to make sure there's more trouble, someone like you comes out of the woodwork and stirs it all up again. It's a brilliant strategy on your group's part to continue to harass/isolate me but it doesn't do much for the health and well being of the Forum.

Still, I've come to expect the worst and deal with it when it happens. Continue your sledging Phazz - you must be scoring serious brownie points from the rest of your clique - but please don't make the mistake of thinking that a continued and sustained level of personal attacks made on me are going to silence me, shut me up or make me run away crying from the Forums.

Call me pigheaded but I just hate it when the bullies win.

[guru_g]

Yep, you're right. There was no post since 28/03/10 until yesterday.

[poolboy jackson]

http://shouldntbutdo.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/scab.jpg
It's a scab.
Wounds won't heal
if people continue picking at scabs.

[Phazz]

Wow! You should have been a lawyer or a celebrity agent with that brilliant selective use of information and the amazing spin you put on it.

You left out one other thing in my list of crimes against humanity - the comedy podcast transcript thread which I later asked to be deleted. You might as well be a completist when you're listing my crimes.

I do wonder though, with all spin and selective use of information taken out of the equation, showing a real lawyer the totality of the posts you are talking about and the vicious personal attacks I've received and continue to receive on the Forum....just what a lawyer might make of who actually has the legal case to make?

I still have the LB thread and pic - and since it was complimentary about him and used a nice photograph...along with the fact that there were lots of other pics of him on the Forum that people put up... And let's combine that with the fact that there's no legal basis for him or anyone to prevent having a bog standard photo of themselves put up on the internet in Australia.

Now if we look at LB's posts for say a three week period earlier this year....and showed them to a lawyer...I just wonder what the advice would be?

Yes I did tell Sneakos to get over something during a heated debate on an issue. I didn't attack him, vilify him, slander him or threaten him. No, that was and continues to be other forum members who do that to me. I think I've already sorted things out with Sneakos but I will say to Sneakos here publicly: what I said in that post was not meant to be insensitive but I think it did hurt you and for that I sincerely apologise. I met you at Stonewall and found you a delightful, fun, warm person - I wouldn't want to hurt or upset such a person.

Next up: apparently I "accused Synergism of attacking you when he disagreed about having a profile picture of himself." I don't remember that but will take your word for it. Apologies to Synergism if I attacked him, vilified him, slandered him or threatened him with my response. Somehow I don't think I did any of those things but anyway.....

You say I "started harassing current and former members of same same, inthemix and sound alliance threatening to sue." This is terrific spin - I'm really loving seeing the real Phazz come out from behind the curtain with these posts.

When these completely unacceptable personal attacks began, I did what was supposed to be done - reported the posts to the moderators via the facility provided.

Nothing happened for days.

The attacks continued and my level of frustration increased.

SameSame/SoundAlliance provided no assistance to me UNTIL I began mentioning legal action, sent PMs to everyone listed on their contact page and sent 2 faxes to the SameSame office.

Even then, the most that happened was that I got a couple of snarky emails back from Christian. There was (apparently) a post asking NickDisco & Flaneur not to comment directly to me on the Forums in future - but I never saw it as it wasn't pinned so it disappeared down the list of posts almost instantly.

I was advised that one of the directors of SameSame - Libby - would contact me to discuss the matter but that never happened. And that was the end of SameSame's owners/managers assistance.

So yes, I did seek legal advice and I did then make sure that I dealt immediately and vigilantly with any further personal attacks on me - and anyone else on the Forum.

There has been an improvement in SameSame management's action in these matters recently - I have to acknowledge that. But to get that improvement...what a price I've had to pay. And, the rest of the Forum too.

And every so often, when things are calming down, just to make sure there's more trouble, someone like you comes out of the woodwork and stirs it all up again. It's a brilliant strategy on your group's part to continue to harass/isolate me but it doesn't do much for the health and well being of the Forum.

Still, I've come to expect the worst and deal with it when it happens. Continue your sledging Phazz - you must be scoring serious brownie points from the rest of your clique - but please don't make the mistake of thinking that a continued and sustained level of personal attacks made on me are going to silence me, shut me up or make me run away crying from the Forums.

Call me pigheaded but I just hate it when the bullies win.

You say that i'm coming out of the woodwork to stir things up, but the start of this thread shows that YOU are the one attacking Same Same and it's members by saying they have formed a clique which is unfounded. Stop being such a hypocrite. You weren't treated any differently to anyone else until YOU started to self destruct on these forums. Then you try to turn it on everyone else.

You don't even know me. How dare you claim such things about me. I'm sure this type of slander will work well in your legal case. :D:D:D

Noone is telling you not to post on these forums. It is available for anyone and everyone to use. You are the one claiming this. This is becoming rather childish so this will be my last post on the issue. Feel free to waffle on as you tend to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWJECLN4S00

[guru_g]

Noone is telling you not to post on these forums. It is available for anyone and everyone to use. You are the one claiming this. This is becoming rather childish so this will be my last post on the issue. Feel free to waffle on as you tend to do.

<youtube clip>

Okay now I'm in shock - you're claiming that this is becoming rather childish after you re-started this dead thread to attack me - and then you've finished your current post with a Ke$ha video.

:rolleyes:

[local_warming]

Apologies to Synergism if I attacked him, vilified him, slandered him or threatened him with my response. Somehow I don't think I did any of those things but anyway.....

.

what is the purpose of an appology being served up if it fails to be genuine?

[Tim D]

Hey folks - can we please cool it a little in this thread. It's getting personal and not very nice. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, let's respect that.

[Mann]

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/8322/wrigleytubcopy.jpg

Look at this dog. Just look at it. How can anybody follow this up with more computer machine attacking.