The death of Oxford Street

[Thatguy]

Are we watching the last final days of a gay Oxford Street?

You can see it in the mix of people on the golden mile, the growth of gay couples in the suburbs and in the shift away from the clubs towards the web.

Rather than being the ONLY gay in the village, I think gays on Oxford street may be the LAST ONES in the village. I am not suggesting that Oxford street will suddenly disappear, or that gay people won't go there, but its relevance and importance is declining. This is because of a wider shift in gay identity. Gay as a label is no longer particularly revealing in telling you much about an individual, so the usefulness in classifying people based on their orientation is fading away. In the near future, the distinction between gay and straight culture will become so blurred, so fractured, and so intermingled there will be little point to having a "gay area" like Oxford street at all.

For many in the gay world, this is both a cause for celebration and a threat. How cool if being gay is simply a "non-issue" among our families, friends, and neighbors. But it is a threat in the way if it is a "non-issue" then why do we need a seperate gay area - have we lost our gay identity? For many of us who grew up in silence and shame, a seperate "gayness" was important. It helped define us not only to the world but also to ourselves.

So, the decline of Oxford street is both exciting and sad - like the last episode of friends - sad, but frankly it had its day, and now it is time for something else. Oxford street will live on, and is still popular with groups of slightly overweight girls out on hens nights, to see the freaks. Good for a laugh, but no longer a gay area.

[Tristianity]

hmmm i wouldn't go as far to say that. Of course there have been a few new straight clubs opening (havana, mylk etc.) along the strip, but oxford street is still as gay as ever.

I really don't have an issue with what you are proclaiming because i really haven't witnessed it. Maybe because people around your age are settling down and moving to the suburbs but people who are younger (such as myself) still hang out there...

[Thatguy]

Ewwww...... so it is not oxford street which is dying - it is me who is getting old?

Steady on......

[danny corvini]

As someone who lived around the Oxford St area from 93 to 99 and was back there last week having a look around, I'd have to say no, it's not dying. There are still plenty of queers around there, and certainly in a much higher concentration than any other place in Australia.
However, the vibe is dying, or dead. I remember a feeling around the area in the 80s and 90s which isn't there anymore.
What I notice is lots of bland, substance-obsessed gay individuals there who add little or no colour to the day.
I blame drugs, the price of rent, the impact of Aids, rude people and unimaginitive club owners/promoters. But I still think a bit of magic can happen on the strip.....

[danny corvini]

Dont worry Thatguy, I was expecting your profile to say 45 or 50. 34 is not old. An ex said to me a few weeks ago "you look good for your age". Of course I didn't take the compliment, I just got caught on "for your age". Fuck it.

[Thatguy]

Well, apparently gay years are like dog years - seven for every one - which make me 238 years old ! The other way I heard about working out your gay age - is to work out how many years ago you came out plus 19. So, I would be 24!

Or your Gaydar age - which is just completely made up!

Does your gay age have to match your chronological age?

Anyway, I think I am thinking about.......well, it is like the movie the castle - it is marbo, it is the vibe.... yes - the vibe of oxford street. The mood is shifting, and I think that the difference between young gay guys and older ones is interesting. Many young guys have been "out" at high school, and had boyfriends then, which is great. They often go to straight, or mixed venues.

For older gay guys, ones who faced lots of homophoic attitudes growing up, the story is different. I think that gay venues or a gay street was a response to having a place to go. However, if you can go anywhere - why do you need a gay Oxford street?

[danny corvini]

I think things are changing, but it's easy to see it thru rose coloured glasses. I don't think that young gays & lesbians are completely free to do whatever they want now. Homophobia still exists, and don't forget how much "shier" you were when you were a gay teenager, so you can feel so much more vulnerable. I think we still need gay venues, but I think the rise of gaydar chat has made going out, which is essentially "coming out", a choice not a necessity. I think a lot of the younger ones will face the same issues and needs, as do we in relation to older gay generations..

[danny corvini]

..I think a lot of the "changes" are purely in a "marketing" sense only. But it would be interesting to find out in which ways things definitely have changed. Anyone?

[genkij]

I'm 35 thatguy ..... & i feel pretty much the same ....Ice & GHB is killin' the vibe in Sydney.
Clubbing in the 90s was more social.... E was the word ...recently I could not even look at other people in ARQ ... they were all ver scetchy !!!

Manacale is cool & so is DTPM when it happens Not to mention Fagtag (Hi Tim !!)

werd

[Braxn]

Lets face it:

1. Arq and the Shift are in major need of a makeover... I mean major!
2. More and more straight people are going out on the strip now changing the dynamics completely.
3. Not suggesting it has anything to do with the above but there feels like there have been an increasing number of violent attacks on Oxford Street of late.
4. The drug d'jour has changed from e to ice and frankly people are getting scarier by the minute.
5. The Oxford Street clubs don't try hard enough to attract people back, ie through sharp theming, headline Dj's etc... and no "fomo" is not a theme it's an excuse to get a rash!
6. Straight dance / music events have increased in frequency and production values meaning gay people can get thier fix of headline DJ's elsewhere.
7. Gay special events such as Toybox and DTPM have absolutely nailed the production values and feel that many people are seeking meaning people would rather wait to experience a decent event than go to Oxford street for a third rate night.

[Thatguy]

So Braxn - you think that we are turning into gay goldfish? With attention spans of 9 seconds?

So instead of going out on Oxford street you recon everyone is getting bored quickly because they know there are so many more things out there to go to?

Dunno - However, I think your points about drug use, and the mix of straight people on the strip are valid. But, don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are straight . . . . . .

Anyway, I am more interested to know why you think Oxford street has become a third rate night out - what has changed?

[jackie87]

I think we are getting to the de-ghettoization stage and now surprisingly we have spread out all over the inner suburbs (such as Annandale, Marrickville, Newtown, Waterloo, Leichhardt) because it is ridiculously expensive to find places to live near Oxford St and many of these places are still within a 15 minute bus ride anyways plus at least they have backyards (something I would definately miss if I moved out)

[Tristianity]

ok just for the record "thatguy" i wasn't suggesting you were old, i was saying that alot of people your age are settling down and moving to the suburbs. Hell i still live at home and have to put up with all the homophobic attitudes from my dad and my brother.

I can't wait till i'm older, living on my own/with partner, having money and being free from prejudice.

[danny corvini]

Meanwhile, the smaller Melbourne gay scene is thriving, with new venues and new nights and venue renovations keeping things going.
And Melbourne doesn't have an Oxford St gay strip, with venues being much more spread out; although their are clusters around Prahran and Collingwood so you can still walk to 2 or 3 different venues in a night if you want to.
As for drugs destroying the scene down here, I admit I avoid the clubs and parties that I imagine that happens at. I hope Sydneysiders have enough alternatives to avoid it too!

[Thatguy]

Melbourne might be a nice place to live, but I wouldn't want to visit...

[orsman01]

hey fellas - watching this thread with interest. as an ex Aucklander (23+ years) who jumped the ditch to Melbourne in 2005, and so far, someone who hasn't even been slightly tempted to come up to Syd - i have to say that i do think we're experiencing the same kinds of things here... altho, as someone (i forget who) said, because our scenes are more spread out and mixed, maybe not quite so obviously...

but for what it's worth, i suspect it's not a local thing - i know that in recent years i've experienced the same sense of loss of identity, both here and in NZ! (and, yes, i really AM ancient)

i still go to dance parties because i love the music and the social connections i can make with strangers, and i still go to specifically gay or at the very worst, statedly mixed (known a few years ago as 'crossover') bars/clubs because i know that even if i don't know ANYONE there, i will still get a sense of belonging - a sense that i'm welcome and that i can make that extra long eye contact with a hottie without fearing he's going to take exception to my "slightly longer than normal" eye contact and come over (or worse still, wait for me outside) and whallop me one!!!

so i guess what my rambling is meant to convey is that i'm kinda with thatguy on the change - can't say it's bad - haven't we been asking for years to be "accepted" for who we are - but also can't say that it's all good. hopefully, we won't become so watered down/diluted in our cultural difference that we just 'blend' in.

after all, isn't the flirting, the long looks, the bar cruise one of the best things about going out for a few drinks with the 'boys'?

james

[Braxn]

Not sure what you mean by the gold fish/attention span remark Thatguy?

I guess I'm saying that the vibe on Oxford Street has changed probably due to a number of factors such as decline in venue standards, change in drug mix, increase in straight clubs etc. Though the straight and gay social worlds are blending more and more I don't necessarily think that this has suddenly made a gay identity irrelevant. Oxford Street may be in decline but people may have just migrated elsewhere. Look at King Street, Newtown. Look at the success of non Oxford street events such as Homesexual, Toybox, DTPM and the recent Navigaytion cruise.

I guess for me when I go out with my friends (straight or gay) for a drink I don't feel obliged to go to a gay venue. If I was to go clubbing, though I do go to straight venues from time to time, I much prefer gay events/venues as generally I prefer the vibe. Increasingly this isn't on Oxford Street for all the reasons I listed in my earlier post.

[danny corvini]

Melbourne might be a nice place to live, but I wouldn't want to visit...
What a strange comment. They say down here "Sydney's a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there" - well yours is a strange spin on that!

[Thatguy]

Well - apparently Melbourne is a very "live-able" city, but if it were a game of cards, Melbourne would be bluffing. Lets see . . . .

The Harbour...

The Bridge...

The Opera House...

The National Parks...

The Rocks...

New Years Eve Fireworks...

The Beaches...

[iCandy]

Melbourne has friendly people...

I've lived in Sydney for some 20 odd years & I have some great friends here, but I do find that generally, Melbourne people are a lot more friendly & approachable than Sydney folk.

I have often been asked by visiting OS guests why people in Sydney have such attitude problems.

[danny corvini]

Thatguy, have you even been to Melbourne?

The bars, clubs, cafe scene..

The architecture..

The cheap rent..

The shopping streets..

The cultural scene..

The friendliness (people in cars stop to let people cross the street! it's almost bizarre!)

The festivals..

How funny that this has descended into a Sydney Vs Melbourne.. although I guess I kinda started it, inadvertently..

[danny corvini]

I have often been asked by visiting OS guests why people in Sydney have such attitude problems.

It's because they think they live in the most amazing city in the world... and don't realise its faults, of which there are MANY, if you were really serious about comparing it to somewhere else...

[Thatguy]

lol - yes, I actually love Melb, and lived there for a couple of years but couldn't resist being a bit cheeky. The differences between the two cities are interesting to compare. Perhaps the geographic distribution is behind the lively scene in Melbourne. I think that Mr Mary's in Redfern could be part of a new trend of smaller gay venues outside of the golden mile - (although I have not been there) - and Fag Tag is very successful in transforming a venue into a gay friendly one - so perhaps we will see interesting developments in Sydney - perhaps . . .perhaps

But, I still have a bit of a sinking feeling about Oxford Street.

So, agreed - no more of the tired Sydney vs. Melbourne debate - back to the original posting - the death of Oxford Street.

Now, if we could only bottle the Melbourne Mojo..........

[Tim D]

Since when did this thread turn into a Sydney v Melbourne debate?

We all know that Sydney is better...........(jokes!)

[danny corvini]

I love Sydney... I love Melbourne... I hate Perth!

[Tristianity]

haha i hate Adelaide.

[jnabrams]

Ewwww...... so it is not oxford street which is dying - it is me who is getting old?

Steady on......


You're not old That guy. :) You just have experiance to draw a different perspective on. I can't wait to see Oxford Street for the first time and see what y'all are talking about.

Jon

[david_margeaux]

I've lived around Oxford Street on and off for the better part of nearly 12 years and yes, it has changed significantly. When I first arrived in Sydney and lived on Goulburn St near Crown, there was always a cute boy walking about, friendly people everywhere, loads of cafes, trendy little clothing stores - and all of it cheap, overtly gay and very accessible.

Over the years they've all disappeared and very few have replaced them. I think its because as the gays got into real estate, many moved away to other suburbs and were replaced with straights who were initially attracted to the (gay) lifestyle. But even they started demanding services that weren't so gay hence a change over on the strip to bars, clubs and shops that weren't as gay.

In tandem with all that, gays had more acceptance than ever before and so some of the loudest, most out there boys and girls toned it down, or moved away or stopped or got old or whatever, but they've disappeared too.

So all this meant that the strip lost a lot of it's traditional identity, replaced, refreshed and updated, more reflective of the actual community that exists in and around the Oxford Street precint. There are still the gays, but less of them that I can tell, and loads of straights, mostly well behaved.

I also think that some of the more discerning gays that are still in the area have found alternatives to the strip. In fact, I rarely venture onto the strip at all anymore, except mainly to go out on the odd occasion, depsite living less than a 5 minute walk away. Most of what I need is actually off the strip these days, great pubs, cafes, clothes and more can be found on the streets off Oxford. Streets like Bourke, Crown, Goulburn, Burton, Riley, Campbell in particular are teeming with chic gay friendly services.

Maybe this is why the gays aren't so prominent on the strip - we've moved on and found something else?

[Thatguy]

Oxford Street is SO last season hu?

But, your comments ring true...... Oxford Street is becoming....."Hetro-fied"

Finding alternatives to the strip for an alternative lifestyle........

Maybe we should get Oxford street to become a heritage listed site?

[danny corvini]

Meanwhile, is it just me or is there more and more gay people living in the Cross now?

[danny corvini]

How long can grown people stay living and socialising around the one street?!
I mean, the gays that were there in the '80s and early '90s hadn't exactly lived there since the '50s or '60s - so maybe it's worth considering that!

[Lush]

Just popping my 2 cents worth into this little thread.

Was it the closing of the Purple Onion waaaay back that signalled the death of the gay strip.

Perhaps it was Saddletramps becoming the Exchange. All those cute seedy mirrors and saddles traded in for more upmarket bar space.
I do miss Patches.....DCM was never even close to being cool but perhaps by then I was getting on in years. Both of these clubs catered more toward the "Straighter "party bimbo's and boy toys looking for a bit of trade but wanting to be outed as "that way inclined" good home fun and go home with my straight grilfriend.

Personally I see the Death nell as the Albury's sad demise. It was really all down hill from there.
Now dont get me wrong, there are still some fine clubs on the Oxford strip. But they are aimed at those younger than I.
I dont mind some good old fashion house music. I own a few Ministry of Sound CD's they sit nicely with my Eartha Kitt's, Culture Clubs and the Marilyn Manson.
Perhaps I am getting old..(40's...early thanks for asking) for me there are too many poker machines and not enough dance space. Too many drug fucked miniteenyboppers and not enough cheap booze. I like to drink, dance, get trade , do it in the loo and go back out and dance some more But it's been a few years since that was able to happen for me. Even the Taxi Club which I ADORE has one person per cubicle printed in big letters in the ladies loo. I wont go inot the good times I have had in there. But even they dont have much of a social scene outside the gambling. (Disclaimer...I LOVE the TAXI Club in all it's incarnations and am not critising it in anyway shape or firm the staff and ammentieis are fantastic :-)...I Just miss the Karoke bar they used to have.
We have become the social parents. The music is too loud and the people are too young and straight. (Well that bits true) Gone are the days of genderbending music and all night f*ck parties. The 80's killed that. Oxford street has passed away and become a social hub for the danceclub, hip hop, wannabe's and their "ho's". I have been heckled and hassled just for walking down the street looking like...well me. I do still find it funny that Mcdonalds couldn't even make a living there and closed with a year of opening.
My time has been and gone. My people are dead and buried. the Music lives on in Retro but the "feel" will never be the same.
R.I.P. Oxford Street.



*sigh*...I've been meaning to get that off my 44dd chest for some time now. Thank you.

[david_margeaux]

Actually, I think the poster who said that the demise started around the time of the Albury closing is probably right. It was a great bar to go and SOCIALISE in, and so much of that drag/bar culture is nowhere to be found anymore.

[danny corvini]

OK Lush, you've definitely proved that you've been around a lot longer than all of us combined! By the sound of it, you should become a DJ or promoter and start getting an "old school" (sorry!) night together where some of those sounds can be heard. I've always thought that just because the bulk of the music is poofy house, inane trance and teenie pop, that doesn't mean that that's what the majority of people want to hear. It's lowest common denominator for the most part.......

Would be interested in hearing more of your stories about the Oxford St you remember........ as long as it's not buried in too much cynicism ;)

And I think it's a CRIME that the Albury was shut. I remember reading in the Wentworth Courier at the time that it was a part of the conditions that the upstairs would get an "Albury" bar in exchange for trading off downstairs to "shoes". It seems that for the powers that be in Sydney, nothing is binding (I can't imagine a legendary pub in Melbourne like the Espy getting closed down...).

[GenesisInVain]

Hey for a 'youngling' like me, Oxford St is still that gay fantasy land we still dream about. Somewhere that is 'oooh'. Somewhere, where being gay is cool and almost like a refuge where we won't cop as much flak for being queer. I hope it doesn't die and I hope it never will disintegrate, what hope will younger gays have then? We shouldn't let it become 'hetero-fied' either because then we will lose our identity. What young gay and lesbian kids need, and I speak from experience, is a stable area and identity where we can be affirmed of what we are, of what we believe in. I know I sound preachy but its true. Yes, Oxford St is infamous for its queens, public displays of affection and just OUT-rageous clubs but thats what makes Oxford- do we really want to lose that and let it become the gray, monotonous inner Sydney suburbs-FUCK NO! That is all.

[danny corvini]

No matter what the gritty "reality", Oxford Street will always be that place we can "project" onto, in that American Las Vegas/Los Angeles/New York way...

And I think GenesisInVain's post makes a point that no, life is not all peachy out in mainstream Australians for young G's and L's now. Someone made the point that maybe Oxford Street is not needed now because everything and everyone is so incorporated these days... Nice thought, but not reality either..

[david_margeaux]

Yeah all thats good and well, but if the young'ns are so concerned about losing the Strip, perhaps they should make more of an effort to use it....

[AussieG]

Great discussion Thatguy..... stemming from our coffee at the Grumpy Baker?

A few things to consider:
- there's a natural rise and fall. Darlinghurst was THE place to be in the 80s/90s. Times change
- Gentrification is good, but when Starbucks, Gloria Jeans and Lonsdale move in it's hardly indie/cutting edge
- the death of coffee culture - the 'cafe scene' has shifted... into the city (Hyde Park area), the Cross
- 'Harder' gay clubbing. As lovely as ARQ and the Shift they don't sit well with a coffee/dining culture
- Growing homlessness/drug problems of the area, but also greater use of the facilities that help them
- Oxford St as becoming a Parramatta Road... and the population of suburbs around Bondi and along Anzac Pde expand.
- Wesfield culture - RIP Videodrama, etc. Sydney likes it's shopping centres (World Sq, Bondi)

[danny corvini]

Oh I forgot all about Videodrama!!!

[GenesisInVain]

We do so try to use it! I venture into the City, especially Oxford St. almost every weekend.(My usual ritual..clicking my heels together and uttering "There's no place like home". Oxford St does feel 'homey-in my opinion'). I mean it should be more 'young-people' friendly. I know there's great cafes and clubs but what about the young G's and L's who aren't over 18 (This only applying to the clubs, bars and 'naughty' shops). Yeah it is true we can walk up and down that Street, look into the windows but that isn't enough. If we are supposed to keep this street alive, why not open it up a bit more for the young G's and L's.?That's my advice.

[AussieG]

Maybe a way to do this is for the City council to help cultivate streetwear, design, and alternative shops in the area....esp, the streets around Oxford St to bring people back to the area.

We do so try to use it! I venture into the City, especially Oxford St. almost every weekend.(My usual ritual..clicking my heels together and uttering "There's no place like home". Oxford St does feel 'homey-in my opinion'). I mean it should be more 'young-people' friendly. I know there's great cafes and clubs but what about the young G's and L's who aren't over 18 (This only applying to the clubs, bars and 'naughty' shops). Yeah it is true we can walk up and down that Street, look into the windows but that isn't enough. If we are supposed to keep this street alive, why not open it up a bit more for the young G's and L's.?That's my advice.

[Christian Taylor]

hmmm... fortunately oxford street still has some gay enclaves that have closed their doors to the mostly hideous straight rabble that has overrun that street now - the shift, phoenix, manacle. ummm... i think that's about it unfortunately. sometimes stonewall counts. sometimes the oxford. sometimes palms. RARELY the columbian. that's about it.

nightclub security on the strip has to accept a big chunk of the responsiblity with the demise of the golden mile. there's not much loyalty to the gays anymore when it comes to who gets let in - and like it or not, that's a very important aspect of our culture.

oxford st has also been overrun by IRRELEVANT people. look at the queue at HAVANA. the pleasure chest had to get a security guard at the front door to stop fifteen year old molls from wandering in, thinking it was funny to go harass the gay men through the glory holes. look at T2. that place has more fist fights per night than any other venue on the strip - how it shares a licence with manacle is anyone's guess - at least manacle will protect the patrons inside by making sure the T2 crowd can't get in.

i also blame gaydar too. unashamedly. so much of our culture has been replaced online profiles and the never ending quest for the next hot hook up. now instead of going out people log onto gaydar and hook up for casual sex. fundamentally, gaydar has devalued gay sex more than just about anything i can think of. now you can order a fuck like you'd order a pizza. if there's someone you don't like you can just block them. you can see someone's cock before you see their face. i mean, i don't know about you, but that's pretty damn sad. if that's what we've become, then forget fred nile and people of his ilk - we don't need enemies trying to shut us down, we're doing it all on our own.

[jamieavenger]

There's a lot of people here living in the past. Gay culture has evolved. This is a positive. Why should our identity be limited to the male centric, drag obsessed culture that was Oxford St of the 80's ? How boring.

Many gays and lesbians have more diverse interests, values and musical tastes that Oxford St does not cater for. Perhaps it would retain a gay feel if it reflected this diversity

[FlipX]

Word. :)

[Stevie Boy]

What a great topic to stumble across. This is something I am quite passionate about and have been thinking about for some time.

I completely agree with the suggestion that part of the problem is the 'Westfield culture' engulfing Sydney. I really don't like the direction Sydney seems to be heading in certain areas and I think part of the blame can be put on the planning minister Frank Sartor. He approves any and every development put forward seemingly regardless of the impact it will have on the character of our city. I think Clover Moore is doing her best to steer it back in the right direction with her ideas such as creating a 'city of villages' similar to NYC.

I do feel that no matter what the current trends are it is important for cities to have idenfified gay areas with gay bars and clubs. It's all very well to mix it up in straight venues but let's face it - it's damned hard to meet another gay guy in a straight venue. As someone else suggested, taking a risk and checking a guy out 'cause you think he might be gay but ends up being straight makes things very difficult.

In regards to Oxford Street I am hugely disappointed with the number and type of straight clubs that have been allowed to open on the strip and I think this has directly contributed to the decline. If they were trendy/classy mixed bars with a tolerant and open clientelle then I think they would fit in nicely. However let's face it, clubs like Havana, Mylk etc. do not attract the type of clientelle who mix well with gay people. In fact I can't think of a worse style of club to put next to gay venues. The worst thing is the way these clubs have queue lines pouring out onto the street so gay people are forced to walk right through and around these people. It is just not a good mix! What really upsets me is that we are supposed to be one of the gayest cities in the world (and we are home to Mardi Gras for goodness sake!) but we do not have a strip that represents that. I'd like to see incentives put in place for more gay clubs and businesses to open and more disinsentives for the type of clubs like Havana. Considering many of the buildings are owned by Sydney City I'm sure this could be feasible.

Anyway that's enough rambling for now but I'd suggest if anyone else is passionate about this issue drop by Aussie Boys or the Pop Shop one day on Oxford Street and put your name down to be a part of OSCAR. It is a new group trying to get Oxford gayer again and really improve the precinct

[AussieG]

The problem isn't the straights, so much as the empty shops, and generic new shops.

I'm old enough (though still in my 20s) to remember that Havana and Mylk were Byblos and , ooh forgot the others name back in the mid-90s.

[danny corvini]

Byblos was Zoom. Taylor Square Hotel was JBF (Just Been Fucked!) - although that place has always seemed pretty cursed. It was home to one of Sydney's first bonafide house music parties though, when DJ Danny Rampling played there I think in 94? That's when house started taking people away from the techno/rave scene. But yeah, another topic!!
I think there should be regulations preventing these sorts of venues, just as there have always been regulations that have kept videogame arcades out.

[FlipX]

Nice point about the types of shops opening - a street's establishments do a lot to build on or detract from its character. Right now, I don't feel like Oxford St has a lot of personality or heart.

[Lush]

I didn't mean to sound cynical. I was just running low on Passion Pop and being all reminiscent. (At least now I know what JBF stood for...gosh I missed that completely)...Times have changed and people move on. But, while the "Popshop" lives there is always going to be an Oxford street. That and House of Fetish can never really change and thays why I love them.
The night clubbing and screwing to your hearts content in seedly alley ways cause all those nasty germs hadn't been invented yet......Priceless but from another lifetime.

It may not be how I will always remember it....but it still has it's moments. And you dont wanna know how Old I am in gay years.!!!...But I still have most of my teeth. I finally know what my oldies were moaning about...gosh darn generation gap...chasm more like.....

Ok, Buy me a drink and I'll tell you all about the time disco ruled.

[jasn]

Might be too much to ask for an inner-city street to be largely gay, especially given a lot of straight clubs are elbowing for space?

Although I do find the massive queues into the straight clubs a bit dampening sometimes.

Also what was so good about the Albury that The Imperial or Flinders (or any number of other venues) could not potentially provide?

I mean .... a venue is what we make it... and there seems to be lots of venues trying to do fun and creative stuff... so why not run with it?

[sydney25]

Hi guys, I've been living in Sydney on and off for the past seven years and have to say I think Oxford Street has improved vastly over the years. The street itself feels cleaner and I feel much safer walking home at night. I think the clubs are better too as are many of the drag shows.

I used to dislike places like Arq and the Shift but I think the music and the shows have improved. The only think I do miss in Sydney is the legendary Caesars which of course was not on Oxford Street. But on the whole I prefer Oxford Street now than seven years ago.

On another issue, Melbourne also has a pretty good scene. Cheers guys William

[danny corvini]

Yes, Caesars was good. You're talking about the one in Petersham at the art deco hotel, not what was Club Apia I hope?

The thing with losing the Albury was that it was such a symbolic thing, that the council couldn't give a rat's arse about protecting the area's gay heritage. To think they let it turn into a shoe shop is just f**ked. That bar should've been heritage listed.

[danny corvini]

[QUOTE=Lush;2012] It may not be how I will always remember it....but it still has it's moments. And you dont wanna know how Old I am in gay years.!!!...But I still have most of my teeth. I finally know what my oldies were moaning about...gosh darn generation gap...chasm more like.....

QUOTE]

You're thirty nine! Not 69!!!

[Sharkey]

I agree that the vibe has gone. I started my time on Oxford Street in '87, however by '94-'95 you could feel the 'golden mile' becoming tarnished. The period from '87-'94 was my 'Studio 54' and it was a fine old time.

Don't be sad it's over. Be happy that it occurred.

[danny corvini]

Yeah totally. I moved around there in 93 and was already complaining about it by the mid 90s!!!!

[Braxn]

I think this weekends drive-by shooting is a telling moment about where Oxford Street is at. I am not sure if there have been more bashings than usual of late but the recent one where two guys got bashed up by 10 thugs with one ending up in a coma is just shocking. The two guys were thought to be gay but were actually straight.

What are the police doing about it or are they going to continue to deny there is a problem?

[jasn]

Well, maybe a good proportion of the crime is drug related. And given many people on samesame (the partiers, i assume) are against police presence, it's a tough call.

Patrolling oxford street at 2am can't be a happy thing.

[danny corvini]

I believe there should be a 3 strikes and you're out policy for running a nightclub in the (gay) area. If straight venues are the source of the punters who are creating the problems, then their licenses should be revoked until they prove they can attract a better crowd.
There needs to be some sensitivity given to the area, as is Chinatown, to protect its character.

[Christian Taylor]

Well, maybe a good proportion of the crime is drug related. And given many people on samesame (the partiers, i assume) are against police presence, it's a tough call.

i don't think people are against a police presence, i think people are annoyed that violence and crime on the streets continues to increase and we still don't have a decent g&l liaison officer program happening in surry hills. and i think people start to get jaded when they hear that and are involved in violent incidences on the streets themselves, but then only see police wandering around with sniffer dogs in nightclubs...

perhaps the sniffer dogs wouldn't be so annoying to people if we felt we were being looked after in other ways...

[AussieG]

We sowed the seeds of our own demise.

There's a huge wall of silence around drug use in gay clubs, (ARQ, Shift) and the various circuit parties etc....

Everyone goes on about how they are responsible recreational users, but is it anyone wonder that drug-related violence occurs on Oxford St too?

[jasn]

i don't think people are against a police presence, i think people are annoyed that violence and crime on the streets continues to increase and we still don't have a decent g&l liaison officer program happening in surry hills. and i think people start to get jaded when they hear that and are involved in violent incidences on the streets themselves, but then only see police wandering around with sniffer dogs in nightclubs...

perhaps the sniffer dogs wouldn't be so annoying to people if we felt we were being looked after in other ways...

I understand what you're saying, Christian. A lot of people see party drugs as their right, and if they aren't hurting anyone else then what's the issue?

But saying people are annoyed by sniffer dogs but also want the voilence on the streets to stop is denying the connection between party drugs and the social consequences.

Are we supporting the poilice? Or drug crime gangs? And which one of those actually want to help us?

[Zakalwe]

You need look no further than alcohol use when it comes to violence.

Yes Chrystal Meth use has risen, but alcohol is used by the overwhelming majority of people out on the town.

[jasn]

Well that's one opinion. But try telling that to the people who work at St Vincents.

The nature of the two drugs is very different.

But, yeah, true about alcohol.

[shazzboy]

I know what ya guys are talking about with the demise of Oxford ST. I am only 24, but when I first came out at 18 and went for the first time it really felt soooo gay!

Now 6 years later, there is a definate change in the atmosphere. There are quite a few straight clubs and pubs in or around oxford st. They werent there to that extent 6 years ago.

I really only have 3 choices when I go out - Stonewall(my fave), ARQ(when I feel like forking out cash just to get crushed amongst dancing queens) or Midnight Shift(that place is scary!lol)

If there are any others, please let me know! I am so bored, and havent gone out in months cause the scenery is always the same. That and I dont have any gay friends to go out with! Somehow I dont think my straight mate will come with me.lol.

[Thatguy]

Did you see the article about the end of gay - perhaps the problem is not the death of Oxford street but........ the end of gayness? I am going to change my gaydar profile and become......bi-curious, apparently that is much more ........ now

[jasn]

Yes I read the article. Maybe if the western world keeps cruising along being focused on entertainment, money and self-help, then we probably have the luxury of a facade of freedom.

But the western world is becoming decidedly middle-class compared to many asian countries - who have come a long way in terms of power, but not very far in terms of human rights.

The world will be a very different place in a few decades. Well, that is obvious, I suppose. But the nature of the differences might not necessarily be what we expect.

[GenesisInVain]

Hmm. I hope Oxford doesn't die.. what hope will we younglings have then?

[danny corvini]

Don't worry GenesisInVain, I think we're saying it's dying in vibe, not that it will die altogether. It will always have a gay flavour. But it might be a bit "vanilla"!

[Thatguy]

I think I am coming around to the idea that Oxford Street is not really dying. In fact, I have started a new thread, suggesting that Sydney is the new Melbourne - with the opening of the new supper club. So, I recon there is life in the old girl yet!

[danny corvini]

It's cyclical. The deaths don't help tho.

[GenesisInVain]

hahaha!. and as a young kid i always hated the vanilla flavour. it was so boring.

[Tim D]

The death of Dawn O'Donnell and the closing of the much loved (but obviously not enough loved) Pop Shop next to the Grumpy Baker. Is this another nail in the coffin of the changing face of Oxford Street?

[jasn]

Are we so sensitive to the world that we cannot let anything pass on without thinking it's the end for everthing else?

Slide and Will and Tobys are two new things spring to mind that are new on the strip.

Instead of the Albury we have Cattle Call and Priscilla.

We are lucky enough to have two gayish suburbs, while most cities in most countries are lucky to even have one if that.

[Thatguy]

Sure, fair point Jason - but I think we are talking about the same thing.

There is a term called "creative destruction", it is from economics, and suggests that for an economy to be healthy, that it needs some industries to go, in order to make room for something new. So, creative destruction occurs when something new kills something older. So, new things will appear on the strip, and I do agree that we are pretty lucky to be free to express ourselves and have suburbs and areas where anyone can feel welcome and no-one will raise an eyebrow to see two guys walking down the street holding hands.

However, what we are witnessing right now is an inflection point - a moment - where things are changing. We are yet to see exactly what the "new" Oxford street will become, or perhaps if the center is shifting. What is clear, is that something is changing, and with it the way gay identity is defined and expressed in Sydney.

Gay Sydney includes a wide and varied mix of "flavours" of gay - including vanilla and many are happy to revel in this diversity. But, this means that it’s difficult to generalise about a gay identity – mainly because there isn’t one. How can Oxford Street be the center of gay Sydney if we no longer know what it means to be gay.

Perhaps this is not the death of Oxford Street - maybe it is just having an identity crisis?

[Garthy]

Everyones entitled to their opinion and heres my 2 cents worth...or mabe 10..
My opinion about this topic is mixed... I was a barman at the "Oxford" just before it closed for the revamp.. I no longer work there. Whilst working there I had my eyes opened to the gravity of the condition of Oxford st. When I first emerged into the gay world and took my first walk down Oxford st I was soo shocked at the apalling condition of the area and the people wandering the street that I wrote a bit about it in the Diary that I still write in today...heres what I wrote. (yes this is word for word)
'Well look @ this...
I am sitting in the legendary Stonewall on Oxford st. This place has quite a "I am past my use by date" feel
All sorts of people can be found here, Well presented, Cut (Dressed), Stylish and dripping with money, to the people who sit in the street and ask passers by for money. I got dressed into my going out gear in the Hungry Jacks toilets as i couldnt find any other clean and safe-ish place to get dressed and on the way into the store a guy asked me for any loose change. I told him the truth that I didnt have any but the look on his face told me that he thought otherwise. He was dressed in what I have leart to be called "sports kit" (Ie ADIDAS, Nike, puma) each peice of his clothing would easily have been more expensive that my whole outfit put together. Why these people ask for hand outs is beyond me. I saw a note in a soon to be opened cafe looking for waitstaff. OMG!! A guy dressed in army gear just walked in pretending to show interest in what was on tv only to be asked to leave by one of the bouncers. WHY!!?? Are the mental people everywhere in Sydney? Do they flock here because they think they will fit in with the Gays and the Lesbians?
Sorry to say but us queers are all natural so NO they dont fit in @ all. **Now I find that today I look at this old opinion and LMAO! Queers are the most steroid ridden of people in the WORLD!!! if its not illegal drugs stuffing ppl up its the healthy ones who get all buffed up on steroids BACK TO THE STORY**
<The House Of Fettish>
I cant believe this shop I saw here called 'the house of fettish' and I cant believe it makes money!
Why is it that a person can be dubbed mentally unstable for being schitzophrenic and put on medication and stuck in a mental home, when there are people who METAL SPIKES and OBJECTS THAT CAUSE PERSONAL INJURY erotic and kinky?...I was always under the impression that erotic is when you use a feather and kinky is when you use the whole chook!
Wheres the sense in that? People who harm themselves are usually locked away in an assaylum or Hospital and made to fix their harmful habits. So WHY and HOW do people get off on hurting others and themselves?'
Well thats just a page of what kind Of stuff I can look back on now with mirth...funilly enough that guy dressed in the Army gear is STILL roaming the streets and is Great friends with the guys from NYPD pizza place LOL!

[pinkyboisyd]

Meanwhile, is it just me or is there more and more gay people living in the Cross now?

Didn't someone write an article once saying that the new Oxford Street was Macleay Street in Potts Point?

[danny corvini]

If they did I never saw it..

[GenesisInVain]

we have to do something about it i guess. don't worry.. we young people will fix it up!

[Dancingdeejay]

[QUOTE=danny corvini;1877]Oh I forgot all about Videodrama!!![/QUOTE

Here's a few more...

Schuberts Cafe Now a Thai restaurant)
Scooter's (Now Palms)
Kakadu (Now Havana)
Guys & Dolls (Not sure what it is now!)
45's (Now anItalian reatsurant I think)
Chinese Restaurant (Now Hungry Jacks)
MFC Supermarket (Now the main area of the Midnightshift - Downstairs)

...and many more!

[Christian Taylor]

yep, i am moving over to potts point - seriously, that's where it's at these days. it's beautiful over there, nice and leafy, closer to the water, more of a community feel than darlinghurst has anymore and far from the 0bvious skank factor of oxford street.

[Tim D]

If everything is starting to move out a bit and the gay centre is now sprawled around between Potts Point, Newtown, Erskinville and more, do you think that the SIZE of the gay population in Sydney is bigger now than it was 5 years ago?

[Aries Fairy]

I reckon the gay population has gotten smaller over the past few years. It doesn't really feel like there's as much cohesion as there used to be.

Either smaller or just way way way more spread out.

[Thatguy]

So the "gayborhood" of Oxford Street, Surry Hills and Darlinghurst is being "defused" - no longer as concentrated? I think the comments are right about Potts Point, I spend most of the weekend around there - wow are their some cute guys there.

I think that the decline of Oxford Street is linked to the changing meaning of 'gay'. A different type of gay guy is emerging, and the venues he uses, and way he defines himself requires an accepting attitude, but no longer a "gay space". Are we, and Oxford Street entering a "post-gay" phase?

[AussieG]

I'd be fine with a 'diffused' gay community - but it's so hard to move around this bloody city without a car.

p.s. I'm convinced that Maroubra is an emerging new gay beachside suburb.

[danny corvini]

I think that the decline of Oxford Street is linked to the changing meaning of 'gay'. A different type of gay guy is emerging, and the venues he uses, and way he defines himself requires an accepting attitude, but no longer a "gay space". Are we, and Oxford Street entering a "post-gay" phase?
I think there's something in this - it's an interesting thought anyway. So who is this new gay? What do they want, and what do they reject?

[Thatguy]

Well,

Perhaps Mika is an interesting poster child for the "post-gay" guy. He won't say he is gay, but openly will be seen with guys. You can also see the difference in younger guys who don't kiss each other hello, or refer to other guys with expressions like "what is she wearing", they have mixed straight and gay friends, and basically don't identify with "the community". This type of gay guy is unlikely to head out to Oxford Street - what can it offer him? In fact, I don't think that this "new gay" is especially interested in neatly categorising their sexual orientation at all. It is not about sexual identity, it simply doesn't matter. For these guys being gay is virtually indistinguishable from being straight. If this is true, why do we need a street?

[Christian Taylor]

Perhaps Mika is an interesting poster child for the "post-gay" guy. He won't say he is gay, but openly will be seen with guys. You can also see the difference in younger guys who don't kiss each other hello, or refer to other guys with expressions like "what is she wearing", they have mixed straight and gay friends, and basically don't identify with "the community". This type of gay guy is unlikely to head out to Oxford Street - what can it offer him? In fact, I don't think that this "new gay" is especially interested in neatly categorising their sexual orientation at all. It is not about sexual identity, it simply doesn't matter.

An interesting theory - and if this is the direction we're heading in I think we should all be concerned. Sounds like apathy. Ambivalence. Dislocation. Naivety. Invisibility.

To say that sexual identity doesn't matter - well, you'd have to be living in a vacuum. Everything matters.

[jasn]

Yeah I agree Christian.

While it's nice that some teenagers are able to merge into some kind of über cool landscape where anything goes, this certainlty is not the case for every teenager, or even their future adult life.

Sometimes the whole trendy focus of the gay media creates a type of same-ness in image. When, probably, we are a bit more diverse than that. Some of us might even appreciate a drink on the strip as a welcome change to an otherwise quiet homelife.

[Thatguy]

Everything matters - but I guess that is the point.....everything.... not just one thing

Sexuality is just one thread in the whole strand - and it is no longer very revealing in telling you much about the person. It is possible to be out, proud and not obvious. It is something to celebrate that in Sydney - being gay means nothing - in fact, it has lost all meaning.

The loss of gay identity in Oxford street is reflecting a broader loss of gay identity. I think that being invisiable is the same as not being obvious - but isn't that the point?

[AussieG]

Everything matters - but I guess that is the point.....everything.... not just one thing

Sexuality is just one thread in the whole strand - and it is no longer very revealing in telling you much about the person. It is possible to be out, proud and not obvious. It is something to celebrate that in Sydney - being gay means nothing - in fact, it has lost all meaning.

The loss of gay identity in Oxford street is reflecting a broader loss of gay identity. I think that being invisiable is the same as not being obvious - but isn't that the point?

Either that, or the high rents, pavement work, empty shops, and better shopping/cafes in surrounding areas have lured everyone away.

[Christian Taylor]

It is possible to be out, proud and not obvious. It is something to celebrate that in Sydney - being gay means nothing - in fact, it has lost all meaning.

I don't think this is cause for celebration at all, and I'd like to think it's not particularly true either. I like that being gay takes a whole range of forms. I am all for integration too and I like that we've spread out a lot - but if you take a look at any of the gay cruising sites any night of the week you'll see that there are PLENTY of pages filled with men who are still crying out for quintessential gay lives, they're just doing it from home.

We've lost our footprint in this city.

I love how Spain managed to get marriage, get the rights they wanted - and they didn't feel the need to banish their scene in the process. They were strong and now they really do have full lives and REAL choice. I think Sydney could learn a lot from them.

At the end of the day, marriage rights or not, you still need geography and a culture - and unfortunately, Sydney's losing it.

[danny corvini]

I think a lot of guys avoid the scene to an extent because it is not a particularly friendly place to be. There is all sorts of pressure on you to be young & beautiful, which of course is not always possible. On top of that the scene can seem shallow, the people rude and bitchy. All in all, it's not always possible to have a great / enlightening / 'out and proud' experience.
So if we're talking about identity, I think a lot of guys don't want to have to obtain it through 'that'.

[Thatguy]

Losing it?

What is this "quintessential gay life"?

A sterotype living a sterotype life? Does this mean a lisping, sashaying, squealing queen, power mincing down Oxford Street?

I think that at best it is "unremarkable" to be gay, I think it is a little bit like being jewish—perhaps you may be the subject of random acts of discrimination, or despised by some, treasured by others but ignored by most.

Identity is a tricky thing, and when it doesn't mean much to be gay, well - how can you have much of an identity at all? Perhaps we have had too much progress? Gay rights and acceptance into the mainstreem has had its price, if I summarise some of the discussion on this forum, folk seem to be suggesting that an element of the subterranean vividness of the old camp scene has been lost. Oxford Street has been a symbol of gay identity - this is why it is fading - it is simply not that important anymore.

[jasn]

Unture. There's heaps of campness to be found. And it's not as shallow or prissy as some people are making out on here. Hell, Bob Downe is playing at the Opera House this coming weekend. Give it a decade (when the war in Iraq has dragged on, the resource boom is over and China is surging ahead) and people will moan about not having a strip.

Although you do have to pick the right time. Being out at 3am on a saturday night is very crowded and rowdy. But there's lots to do during the weeknights, or even during the day/evening on a weekend.

Make your own space, and fun -- there's plenty of oppotunity -- don't just sit there rolling your eyes waiting to be entertained. Go and play a fiddle at Cattle Call or something.

[taylor-dayne]

it amuses me how we all say we don't want exclusively gay spaces - we condemn the peel when they fought for that, yet now that oxford street is essentially a straight zone we all shun it like the plague and trawl for cock on gaydar...

hypocrisy!

[Aries Fairy]

King Street is the new Oxford Street.

All hail Newtown.

[AussieG]

King Street is the new Oxford Street.

All hail Newtown.

Honey, people have been saying that since the mid 90s.... but it hasn't really evolved much since then.

[Thatguy]

Perhaps this post should have been about the death of Newtown? Regardless of if we are talking about Oxford Street or Newtown I think was is going on is a decline in the centrality of bars within gay culture.

These bars remain the most visible manifestation of gay life in Sydney. These are also spaces where it is safe to be "openly gay" - Although, perhaps the success of sites like samesame are partly to blame? This site, and others share some of the same functions that bars have traditionally served, including connecting people of shared interests and desires. Is the online world sucking the life out of the real world?

[danny corvini]

It could be partly that. The 'gay internet' could be a part of a cultural change, and sites with gay chat might keep people off the scene to a certain extent, as do saunas etc. It's doubful though that someone would take a Saturday night off from clubbing to trawl Same Same as they do Gaydar etc. But I think we're getting off topic here.
The death of Oxford St and Newtown? No, I don't think websites are THAT much to blame. No more so than unimaginative shop keepers and bar owners, dero's, lazy councils, the drug trade and violent bouncers, the list goes on really!
But for a change of topic, what do readers think have improved the strip in the last few years? Has there been any positive signs in Oxford St or is it all bad?

[Tim D]

I actually think sites like this encourage people to go out more.

There is a What's On guide, stories about going out, ways to meet new people to go out with, ads for the venues and where to go.

[timmeyboy]

I agree with Tim, Altho not actually physcially met people off here yet I am looking forward to it.
As someone who has moved to a city and doesnt know anyone, sites like these are invaluable to get to know people so have that first stepping stone to going out.
can you imagien going out on your own and making conversation with random people, i've tried it before and was made to feel like a complete idiot. It's horrible.
I applaud this site and others like it for being more social and conversational than sites like Gaydar where the onus is to have sex eventually with anyone....

[danny corvini]

If there really is a new gay identity, I think we're a part of it.

Same Same doesn't have a gay ghetto attitude: we want to open up our culture & community to things that aren't strictly gay or marketed to gays; we're not obsessed by beauty or the dry area of persecution like other magazines and websites; we encourage a diversity of music coverage on the site and would rather fight stereotypes than to propagate them.

I think with all scenes and movements the original golden age happens and it probably happened on Oxford Street in the '80s when Mardi Gras was still forming into what it's become, and into the first half of the '90s before gay got trendy and Oxford St got over-run and commercialised.

There is a nostalgia involved for everyone who wasn't involved, just as there is now for all the 19 year olds who are dressing with '80s style t-shirts (Frankie Says is back).

The important question is where do things go from here? In the late '90s it seemed that Newtown could replace Darlinghurst, that its sense of community was still in tact as opposed to the Inner East. Obviously it was only partially true. And it seems that a lot of Easties are now making their move to Potts Point and Lizzy Bay, where it was always reasonably gay anyway.

But I think the new gay movement or identity - if indeed there is one, and that's still open to debate - should take into account all of the suburban gays who would never go to Oxford St or Mardi Gras, who fight the gay cause but from a completely different angle.

In the '80s you needed to congregate. In the '00s it's not as necessary (and yes the internet is helping to make that possible..).

[burgjo]

[QUOTE=danny corvini;3807]If there really is a new gay identity, I think we're a part of it.

Same Same doesn't have a gay ghetto attitude: we want to open up our culture & community to things that aren't strictly gay or marketed to gays; we're not obsessed by beauty or the dry area of persecution like other magazines and websites; we encourage a diversity of music coverage on the site and would rather fight stereotypes than to propagate them.

/[QUOTE]

Yes true and I totally agree Danny - but is there enough diversity emerging on the site or is it as has been questioned in the forums - Is it to sex orientated?

Is there any plan to include culture outside the "gay" clubs, news stories covering non "gay" related topics.... music coverage is one thing - but there is so much more to life....... food, fashion, clubs/events, travel etc etc

[Cheetah77]

Hang in there Burgjo, I've been questioning Christian on those very same things and I believe we just need to sit and wait a little while longer...

[Christian Taylor]

Thanks Cheetah - yes, hang tight. We are broadening the scope of reviews, but it's going to require a bit more thought and most likely tech development time too. You'll be the first to know about them though! (Especially considering you'll be the ones writing them...)

[Tim D]

Ha, isn't this thread about Oxford Street?

[Christian Taylor]

sorry. :rolleyes:

*gets back in box.*

[danny corvini]

Yes, hang in there Burgjo and keep telling us what you want to see on the site, and msg myself, Tim or Christian directly through the site if you want to make a direct suggestion.

Covering what's happening in the gay clubs, and helping that side of the scene to evolve is a big part of what we want to do, and I'd personally say that I don't think that it's been done particularly well in the gay media so far. Many of us involved are also involved in clubs and parties so it's important for us to keep that side well represented. So no apologies for that! But we do want to offer the full gamut of possibilities - food, travel, fashion etc are all a part of that picture.

Keep talking, keep participating, and we'll get there. Thanks.

[Thatguy]

Hey - I think this site is great, however regardless of what coverage is included here, the Internet has radically transformed the way gay people meet.

So, back to the post - and Oxford Street - I think that Oxford Streets long-term gay future is unclear, with changes to the retail and entertainment mix turning it straight. As a gay presence becomes fragmented - due in part to the online world, we are losing an Oxford Street which is recongisable as having a gay identity, that is visible or vibrant.

I think that Tim could be right about sites like this actually encouraging people to go out, and I don't think it is the online world which is killing Oxford street, it is individualism that has done it. Being gay in 2007 in Sydney means you can feel comfortable living in different places and doing your own thing. Shops and clubs are becoming less gay and particulary younger guys are losing interest in a "gay lifestyle". So now they have moved on.

[Tim D]

I agree with you Thatguy. It's like we've been fighting for acceptance and to be treated the same as everyone else, and now that the next generation actually is melding in with everyone else, we're starting to complain that we preferred it when the distinction was a lot greater.

It's a bit of a condundrum really. Damned if you do...

[taylor-dayne]

surely there's room for everyone to get what they want. of course it's a good thing that we're melding with the straights. the problem with oxford st is that it's not integrating well...

the straight people who go to the straight bars on oxford are not gay friendly - they're just mingers with tweaker boyfriends. molls in ruffled, oversized boots and earrings. suburban trash. i wish they'd fuck off and go back to epping!

throw in the homeless and the ice-freaks and hello - a sour little melting pot.

i don't blame everyone for running to newtown. that's where i will be going from now on.

[Wilicent]

Living in Newtown I may be somewhat biased, however i generally think Newtown has a much more "busy" scene than Oxford St, and its generally alot more fun to go down there.

A few reasons I would suppose are

- The Dining seen is much more cultivated than the queer section of Oxford St
- The Bars don't really pretend to be anything they aren't - people aren't going out just to be posers (generalisation yes) - and the people who go out there seem to me to be alot more accesible
- A marginal difference but I never spend as much money in Newtown as I do on Oxford St

Having said that, I've never not up for a sashay and a twirl up Oxford St - I just put my money on Newtown

[danny corvini]

Where the hell did you get that photo of a bashed Farmer Dave!?

[Aries Fairy]

I have my sources.

[Tim D]

Newtown needs more venues if it's ever going to eclipse Oxford Street.

Besides the Newtown and Imperial and occasionally the Bank, what other venues are there in Newtown? I like going there every now and again but it's easy to get bored with just two dedicated venues.

[Thatguy]

Hey Tim,

I think that potentially that is the point - it is not about having "dedicated venues" anymore. it is just about the venue!

Gay, straight - as long as it is accepting

thoughts?

[Cheetah77]

Nah, call me an inclusive queen, but I like my gay bars. If I wanted to look at straight boys and girls and listen to their crap, I'd hang out in the checkout lines at Coles...

Give me a gay majority place anytime!

[Tim D]

I totally agree, and amjust as happy as in a straight bar as a gay bar. The only thing is that Newtown doesn't really have any nice straight bars as well!

There are a couple of pubs a la Marlborough and Zanzibar and stuff, but nothing that's too tempting.

[danny corvini]

Kuleto's has reopened (and I know this from Melbourne Tim!) ;)

[Nevarro]

im the same Cheetah... gay bars/clubs have this totally different atmosphere!!
thats why str8 ppl love them so much -

dont get me wrong i dont mind going to a str8 place - like for example a friends bday etc..

[Tim D]

Everything in moderation, that's my motto.

[hotstuff]

Why can't I vote in the poll!?

[Thatguy]

Oh - sorry - I only did the poll for a couple of days.........

However, the results suggest that most folk agree that Oxford Street is dying - being "hetro-fied".

[taylor-dayne]

oxford street has been handed over to the straights. we gave up those spaces far too easily - and the people who fought for them would be horrified... many have said it's a victim of it's own success, and that's very true. take a walk down there on the weekends and the gay people are nowhere to be seen. and quite frankly, i can understand why. i will only go to manacle, shift, phoenix and palms (if i am looking for bad pop). that's it. the rest of it is just - ew... it feels like parramatta.

the straight people that go there are just revolting. gone are the days where drag queens or trannies or partygoers could walk up oxford street in costume. do that nowadays and you'd get your head bashed in.

how sad.

[honey-prawns]

i think all you have to do is go to oxford street on a saturday night and it's obvious everywhere you look that it's dying. i know people are more for having parties at their house and expecting it all just to be there waiting for them when they choose to return but it doesnt work like that. you cant have a garden and not water it and expect to go outside one day to see the roses growing and the grass to still be green. something needs to be done before it's really too late. let's come together and prevent losing something we'll miss

[Tim D]

I tend to agree, I think the straights that go out to Oxford Street are a really different breed from the ones that head to other venues.

[danny corvini]

I was up in Sydney on the weekend and had a blast at the new Oxford Hotel; truly fantastic stuff. But some things were totally of concern; I might have to start a new thread about Sydney nightlife in general to address this stuff tho'. Stay tuned 'siders.

[Thatguy]

Hi Danny,

Interesting to compare - what did you like about the Sydney scene? Was it different to Melb? I think that guys in Melbourne are more friendly, but guys in Sydney are .....[I am going to get in so much trouble for this]......... hotter. I think it is cause there is much more of a body beautiful culture in Sydney. Perhaps that is another reason why the street is dying? Cause there is too much focus on appearance in Sydney . . . . . .

[danny corvini]

I'll go into it in more depth later, but yeah Sydney guys are hotter, ruder and more shallow! That exists in Melbourne too, though. But it is generally the stereotype that the guys on the southside scene (Commercial Rd/Chapel St, Prahran/South Yarra) are more like that, but that the artier fags on the northside (Brunswick St/Smith St, Fitzroy/Collingwood) are more down to earth. It's a bit of a Darlinghurst Vs Newtown thang.

[Thatguy]

Hmmm......

I recon there is something in this......it is not just Oxford Street that is dying - it is the whole suburb.

Does your postcode reveal more about you than anything else?

[burgjo]

I made the trek to Newtown last night for dinner/movie etc and I would have to say that Newtown has also gone downhill lately.. The streets were empty, restaurants and cafes were either empty or quite a few have closed down/changed... the biggest shock is the number of homeless/struggling out on king st. Just no "vibe" at all - or perhaps it was just Sydney's coldest night....

[Tim D]

In all fairness, a Monday night is probably not the best time to judge Newtown.

Oxford Street has not much of a "vibe" on a Monday night either.

Go back on a Thur-Sun Burgjo!

[danny corvini]

An interesting theory - and if this is the direction we're heading in I think we should all be concerned. Sounds like apathy. Ambivalence. Dislocation. Naivety. Invisibility.

To say that sexual identity doesn't matter - well, you'd have to be living in a vacuum. Everything matters.

I'm a bit fifty-fifty on this one. I think there was an element of showing it up in the generations of gays who came out in the '60s, '70s and '80s, where they wanted to be over the top and force their sexuality onto the ordinary man in the street so that they would shock everyone and make their presence known (before that, people probably didn't believe that gays really existed).

While I agree with you Christian that it's better to show your affection for each other, there is a side to me that thinks if the younger guys and gals ain't doing this stuff then maybe it does have *something* to do with progress, and the times.

But, yeah, 50/50.

[Thatguy]

Your 50/50.....? so sitting on the fence hu?

What we are talking about here is "gay identity" - the cookie cutter mould of a "gay lifestyle" which revolved around a certain.....look and disco music. The biggest problem I have with all of this is that it is mostly just not age appropriate. I spent some time with some gay guys on the weekend who were checking out a guy and listerning to them talk was like hearing a couple of 14 year old girls.

Expressing your sexuality can be empowering and healthy - acting like 14 year old girls is not. There are many ways to express your sexuality in 2007, we have more choices, more acceptance and less to complain about.

[burgjo]

what exactly is this "gay identity" and why is it needed?

[Thatguy]

The short answer is that it is about a kind of tribalism, about a sense of community and bond with those who share the same sexuality. Beyond that a cause for celebration - one of the things which make us different, special - that being gay is in and of itself something worth celebrating.

One of the definitions of the word "gay" in Webster's dictionary is "keenly alive and exuberant". I guess this is the spirt of gay idenitity...

However, have you ever had the experience of having a straight person ask you why you think it is important to tell people you're gay, when it would seem strange to the straight person to say to someone "Hello, my name is____, and I'm a heterosexual"?

Well, it is important because gay identity is different to sexual orientation - it implies a political and social aspect. Rainbow flags and all that - However, I think that in Sydney it has become a bit ....tired...and is now it is about sticking to allotted social space, gay consumerism and furthering a rather bland brand of gay conformism.

[taylor-dayne]

okay - so this thread has gotten really INTENSE.

*backs away slowly*

[Nevarro]

let the divide begin...

[Thatguy]

Whatever.....

[Nevarro]

Thatguy - I agree with what you have said.

but i know that there are a bunch on here that wont feel the same.

hence - a divide...

[danny corvini]

maybe you two should go out on oxford st sometime and spice things up!

[Tim D]

How about a working bee on Oxford Street. We can all get together and make it gayer or something.

[Zakalwe]

How about a working bee on Oxford Street. We can all get together and make it gayer or something.
Maybe we could make the pavements even wider! ;)

[burgjo]

the bit i don't get - is if the "gay community" is working so hard at equal rights as heterosexual couples - so basically "to be the same" and a lot of the debates in these forums are about being given the same opportunities etc.. Then why does there have to be a separate "community" and "identity'? Do we want our cake and eat it to?

[smit0847]

Hi Danny,

Interesting to compare - what did you like about the Sydney scene? Was it different to Melb? I think that guys in Melbourne are more friendly, but guys in Sydney are .....[I am going to get in so much trouble for this]......... hotter. I think it is cause there is much more of a body beautiful culture in Sydney. Perhaps that is another reason why the street is dying? Cause there is too much focus on appearance in Sydney . . . . . .

I completely agree. I think sydney guys have much better bodies because they are more body obsessed, but Melbourne guys are much better dressers and a HELL of a lot friendlier (which I think makes them much more attractive).

It was very weird to go to a sydney club and not have a single person even talk to you, even when they bump you in their drugged-up dance.

Ive never had that in melbourne (and Im from adelaide!)

[Nevarro]

the bit i don't get - is if the "gay community" is working so hard at equal rights as heterosexual couples - so basically "to be the same" and a lot of the debates in these forums are about being given the same opportunities etc.. Then why does there have to be a separate "community" and "identity'? Do we want our cake and eat it to?

thats just it tho, ultimately we want to be "same same but different".
Like religious groups and different races etc… they all have their “inner communities” which is really good as it’s a place and or people that they relate to completely but in no way should they be discriminated against they way the gay community is.

We should be treated as equal no questions asked! But we should be keeping our “community” strong because with all these changes we are less likely to “come together” for support, for acceptance and for the simple fact of “fitting in” .
I remember just a few years ago I would flock to Oxford st because that’s the only place I could find other people like me, I didn’t feel “odd” the way I did in school or in my home town.
I could dress how I wanted, act how I wanted, do what I wanted and be with like minded people who understood me.
These days I can hold my boyfriends hand while walking through Westfield’s at Parramatta and not get my head kicked in (maybe a few sly remarks but they aren’t game enough to touch us anymore) this is a great step in the direction we want but that doesnt mean we shouldt still have our own places to socialise etc.
They have women only Gyms, why? because its about community its about comfort.
Men are different to women the way str8s are different to gays.

Being gay is so much more then who you sleep with, its who you are! and your community is the place that understands it all, supports it all.

Like I said before about the “divide” – some people are for the community and some are not and that’s fine, people see things differently.
Just because you may not understand the importance of our community doesn’t mean you should criticise the fact that we want to save it.


But regardless of all that our community is slowly fading 

Check out this new thread to help you understand it – or if you already do understand it then post what it means to you.

http://www.samesame.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=4511#post4511

[burgjo]

it's not that we don't understand the importance of the community at all! Some of us grew up fighting for the rights that are taken for granted today! It's about wanting to be recognised as a part of general society but yet we want to have a separate community. It just seems that it's a case of having the best of both worlds - but how can we be taken seriously if we want to segregate the community and continue to have a ghetto culture? I raised the two sides of this argument in my blog today - to me - it just doesn't make sense.

[danny corvini]

I think you're worrying too much about what other people (the broader hetero community and leaders) think burgjo. I agree with nevarro's comment about being "same same but different" (love the pun!). why can't we strive to have our cake and eat it? i'd like to blend in and be accepted, but have a gay scene too. too ask for less would be short changing ourselves.

[burgjo]

the problem in the past was the gay scene was looked upon as a bit of a circus by the broader public. Recently there were complaints and support for the Peel in refusing entry to straights because the "gay community" was feeling like a freek show. How can the gay community fully gain acceptance when it is running a 'circus' on the side providing entertainment to others... There has to be a "new" and "better" way to do this..

[danny corvini]

Hmmm.

Maybe this debate should be more about how society as a whole has changed, not just oxford st? I mean, it's not the '80s anymore in lots of ways!!!

[burgjo]

totally agree Danny.........society has changed and our place in that society has developed and to a point - "stagnated" - hence why we debate the death of the areas that defined our community..... It's about how do we move forward as part of a broader community whilst keeping the things that make our "culture" and blending it all together. Gay blended into alternative and alternative blended into trendy...... so how do we redefine ourselves without going backwards?

[Zakalwe]

That's if the gay identity stays around. As sexuality less and less becomes a point of difference individuals will naturally gravitate to other subcultures that they identify with.

[Nevarro]

but i dont wana be the only gay left in the village :(

[Thatguy]

Zakalew - I think you have hit the nail on the head,
Nevarro - don't worry, I think that our .....village.....has just become a little .....bigger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhcUH-SaCmo

In fact, I think that gay identity has become a victim of its own success.

Last year around mardi gras there were two guys, holding hands and flaunting their not-so-perfect- bodies down Oxford Street, saying, "We’re here! We’re queer! Get used to it!!"

Some of their friends yelled back "You do this every year. We ARE used to it."

You know - I think everyone IS used to it . . . . .

I wrote earlier, and I think it is worth repeating that I think that at best it is "unremarkable" to be gay, I think it is a little bit like being jewish—perhaps you may be the subject of random acts of discrimination, or despised by some, treasured by others but ignored by most.

Perhaps there has been too much progress? Gay rights and acceptance into the mainstreem means that the importance of gay identity is fading - it is simply not that important anymore.

We don't need to try to "save" Oxford Street, or gay identity - but we do need to work out what it means to be gay in Sydney in 2007, how we want to engage with others (both gay and straight), and at what age you are too old to wear skinny jeans.....

[Tim D]

Do you think that property prices could be a major reason why there is no longer a gay ghetto around Darlinghurst? It's damn expensive to buy around there now!

[Tim D]

(FYI I've taken the posts about Mardi Gras parade and put them in their own thread).

Now back to the topic at hand.

[Thatguy]

OK - well,

Yes higher rents and $4 lattes are part of it but it is also about a "gaybourhood" in flux. I think it is interesting to compare with Melb which has a different sort of divide. Perhaps Redfurn is overtaking Darlinghurst and Slurry Hills as the new gay suburb?

[Tim D]

I reckon it could be. Lots of new cafes popping up around East Redfern, Mr Marys in the centre of Redfern and lots of suburbs around it (Alexandria etc).

[avoninski]

Has anyone heard about the major renovations that are supposed to happen on Oxford St, between Riley and Crown? Apparently the city has plans to build another supermarket and retail complex, and will somehow incorporate the laneway that runs behind that block. I haven't seen any details tho...

At the end of the day, all neighbourhoods change. They thrive, they languish, they grow stale, they die, then they're reborn.

[Tim D]

Haven't heard about those plans, on which side of the road? The harbour side?

[Thatguy]

Um.....

I checked out the city of sydney website - I think it is all completed....

http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/Development/CityImprovements/CompletedProjects/OxfordStreet.asp

[avoninski]

Found it! Its an upgrade of 56 -76 Oxford St and Foley St that includes 17 specialty shops over 2,000 sqm. Check out the Master Plan below. Hasn't anyone else heard about this?

www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/council/documents/meetings/2006/Committee/Finance/310706/31-07-06_FPTC_ITEM2.pdf

[taylor-dayne]

hmmm... renovations schmenovations. so long as my little nooks, crannies and crevices remain intact, i don't care how shiny and green oxford st becomes.

[Tim D]

The question still remains though: even if given a bit of a makeover, can Oxford Street ever get back to its former glory?

There are a couple of things that a new lick of paint can gloss over, but have the people moved on?

[danny corvini]

I think it's "former glory" was actually pretty brief, in the bigger scheme of things. I'd like to know what it was like before the '80s, if anyone here knows?

[Aries Fairy]

I was never around during its heyday, surely it wasn't much different to today. A couple of hobos, some cheap stores and a few gay bars that fleece you of all your pocket money.

[taylor-dayne]

sydney has renovated itself into nothingness. we're all obsessed wtih shiny, bright, new things. it's style over substance. that's why we've stripped everything of its character, of its charm. it's all been deleted and recontextualised. that's what's happened with oxford street. it was at its best when it went under the radar, when it was about the people not the decor. no amount of council funded redecoration is going to fix a very splintered, broken culture.

[Tim D]

Ouch TD, surely it can't be all negative for the future of Sydney. There are some cool places that keep their original charm and manage to move with the times.

I get a bit over people saying "everything used to be so good in the past". We're living right here, right now and we should be thankful for what we've got.

[Christian Taylor]

sydney is fond of the renovation and yes, it can be done really well - millers point, some places in the rocks are two spots that spring to mind. it's too easy to generalise. but i suppose now that sydney is becoming this 'international city' it is moving in that direction of being glamorous.

someone needs to just bulldoze pyrmont though. WHO let that happen? who is approving those development applications? STEVIE WONDER?

http://www.dopmagazin.com/elementi/20051120_172001STEVIE-WONDER.jpg

[jackie87]

No, Frank Sartor

[Tim D]

They were the same sunnies.

[avoninski]

You just wait until Uncle Frank gets his grubby paws on the CUB site (the former Carlton United Brewery in Chippendale). Word on the street is that he plans to stuff if with even more ugly boxes. Hopefully they'll all have that flash Meriton logo on the top, to go with the other 80 Meriton monstrosities in the city.

[ozboyz]

Hello.

Just signed up to the site and wanted to say that I do believe Oxford Street is dying.

You can see that the dynamics of the bars is changing in that they are becoming too generic ie the Oxford Hotel has become a hybrid of the Columbian Hotel. Tribal beats and no atmosphere. Make sure you take your oxygen supply with you when you go there as you will need it with the lack of atmosphere. Also with the new re-fit it looks like a waiting room in some bus station in America. Totally lost the chance there to make is something a little more inventive when they did the gut and re-fit. Could have been something so much more inventive.

Stonewall remains as ever the only place that seems to have maintained an element of gay about it. Mixed crowd, pop music and drag. And it is busy most nights of the week.

The Shift still has a grip on the strip, though again, generic music being played by the DJ's. Club nights geared towards the drug taking population.

The Columbian used to be an alright place to go, but again, that horrid tribal beat sound just does nothing for me. Need to dance around the handbag to something a little more pop orientated.

Palms used to have a bit of oompf about it when Glenn was the DJ but now it just lacks a lot of things. The sound system is the worst on Oxford Street, the drink prices are sooo high you need a second mortgage to have a night out there, and again, it has become a generic take your top off place at the weekends.

Don't know what the solution is though. Perhaps Gaydar has destroyed the need for people to go out and socialise. Cheaper to go on line, log on and see what turns up ( I don't have a Gaydar account myself). Perhaps the internet has made a lot of people turn to this as an alternative to meeting and chating to people.

There is also a lot less gay bars on the strip. The Burdekin as far as I am aware is not an exclusive gay place as before. The Albury died. The Flinders had a re-invention, but again, does it get the crowds in? Not as much as before when it was trashy, and had a young crowd who would dance to a wide range of pop music. Now again it is all this heavy electro/tribal music that has no rhythm, lyrics or any appeal to make you want to have fun. T2 used to be a gay bar, but no one went, so it turned into Westies heaven. Have you seen the trash that is out there at a weekend in the morning? Even the street cleaners won't go near it. The people are just way too feral.

Anyone who can reflect back can they do a comparison of the amount of bars there are now compared with say 5 or 10 years ago?

And Oxford Street is not just about the bars. The restaurants etc are also dying off. Just compare Oxford with King Street and you can easily see that King Street has more food opportunities than Oxford. It is just a shame that it does not have a variety of gay bars to go to.

[Tim D]

G'day Ozboyz, welcome to the discussion.

You make some pretty interesting points there. For those of us who weren't around during the heyday of Oxford St, can you take us through what it used to be like? The venues/crowd etc? And what was the first sign that things were starting to change?

[Thatguy]

So Oxford Street has changed....... but so has being gay

I think Oxford Street can't be blamed for trying to cater to all difference sorts of crowds, some straight, some gay. It has got kinda feral and this is contributing to the retreat of gay guys, which in turn is killing of nice restaurants and the more up-market stores.

I think what Ozboyz is also describing is a loss of vibrancy and energy in the golden mile. Rather than trying to "fix" it, I think it is worth considering if a gay center - or a gay street is important at all. Does it furfill an important role, or have we outgrown Oxford Street?

[ozboyz]

I am probably the wrong person to really reflect on Oxford Street in the past. I have only lived in Sydney for 9 years.

However, I do recall the legend that was the Albury. When I came here in 1998 for Mardi Gras, the hostess on the flight raved about the place, and of course it was one of the first bars that I hit. It was very vibrant, had an exciting atmosphere, and despite being packed out most nights, it was still a fun place to be. The shows were on at reasonable times ie 21.30, 22.30 and 23.30 and were more or less on time, so you could time your night out in order to see drag productions. Nothing like the bars now, where they are crammed onto a small stage, and don't have the opportunity to really showcase what the drag scene has to offer. And they don't show their face till at least midnight.

Not everyone wants to go to Arq or upstairs in the Shift to a club night, which is more or less the only real place to see production numbers. I know that the girls put on shows at Stonewall, but not the same style of production that was the Albury. They simply don't have the room to do it.

The Oxford used to be the leather/bear communities meeting place. It was dark, imposing, but had a style of it's own. The DJ was in his own box above the entrance, and the whole place just seemed to throb with a variety of people, all there to enjoy themselves.

Now, as I have mentioned, it is something that lacks any atmosphere at all. A waiting room for the next bus to come along. Dull. Duff Duff music for the mases. Yawn. Like you can dance and sing along to Duff Duff.

The Burdekin used to have an upstairs bar which was again, a little dark, but dancey with the music they placed. Camp disco. Again a popular place. Now gone to the world of straights, I believe.

The Flinders used to be one of the oldest and most origional layout bars in Sydney. The sound system left much to be desired, but the camp dance, high energy tracks that they used to play attracted the young twink crowd, along the lines of those that go to Stonewall. It was less posey as Stonewall, but the youngsters who went there just danced away wherever they stood and clearly had a great time. The bar staff was a mixed bunch (transgender and drag) and it was just a fun place to hit at about midnight for the crowd and the music.

Opposite the Columbian, where Vanity Wigs opened up there used to be a bar there. This was a late starter on the strip, but it boasted that it would be a great retro bar, Kylie, Madonna, 80's that sort of thing. It had an upstairs and basement, which although small, and not the most exciting of places, played music that the majority of those on Oxford Street could relate to. Vanity used to do shows there along with some of the other showgirls of Oxford Street. But like lots of good things, people just did not take to it, it became a straight haven, and was just horrid, and ended up closing.

T2 used to be a bit of a dive, then it was given a refit, and they tried to attract the gay scene, but it just did not take off. And hence it has become downtown Bankstown at the weekend with the most hideous crowd hanging out there at 7 in the morning. Worse than the Courthouse.

The Shift consisted of the main bar as you walk in and the back bar where the pool room is. Sundays it was so packed that you just could not move and most times you had to cue to get in. Not a nice experience, but that was how popular it was. Now it has expanded into two areas, and just does not have the pulling power of around 1998/2000. Before it was renovated, at the back of the main bar was the dance floor and people used to have a time dancing on down to the retro tracks. Now, it just lacks any of that energy.

The most recent fatality to that which is the death of Oxford Street is the Palace Hotel on Flinders Street. It was taken over by the Pub Boy chain and they did their best to try and attract a gay crowd. Drag shows and friendly bar staff, but again, for some reason it failed to get off the ground. Now it has closed its doors.

Slide is the newest bar on the strip, and although it is impressive inside, it is way too expensive to have a decent night out there. The bar prices are way too high, and again, apart from their Soda nights, the music is just way too wrong. It is decked out like an 80's disco with the floor etc, and really is a beautiful bar, stepping out of the samesame mould of the other bars, but I just can't feel right there.

ozboyz

[ozboyz]

I do think that Oxford Street should play a role as the gay centre of Sydney. We still do not have that full recognition and freedom to go to a straight bar and be ourselves, whatever that may be. It is still easy for straight people to enter the gay community and integrate without too much hassel, however the same cannot be said of the gay community.

It still needs an epicentre where people can go and feel safe and identify with those around them.

The gay community has become more visable and individuals have the ability to be at ease with their sexuality and as such have a wider network of straight friends whom they rightly so want to share their night life with. However as each gay person brings in their straight counterpart, this in turn waters down the gayness of the strip, and we loose our identity. Straight people do not have this problem. The fit in with society regardless of where they go. They do not have anything to prove or hide. they simply can be.

However the gay community still does not have that freedom. They still face persecution, torment and ridicule from others, and it is for this reason we need to have an area where we can go, identify and feel at ease without fear of being seen as different or abnormal.

So yes, Oxford Street as a gay centre is vital.

[Tim D]

Cheers for the history lesson. I wonder if we'll ever look back at Oxford Street today with the same fond eyes...

[danny corvini]

T2/Taylor Sq Hotel/JBF has NEVER, ever been gay, or particularly gay friendly. I think the fact that that bar has become a sort of replacement for the '90s Blackmarket (Redfern) crowd is disastrous for the strip, and dangerous. It is an anomaly that 'that' kind of crowd has always tried to edge in on gay Sydney. It happened with DCM back in the way early '90s, the clubs just next to Stonewall in the late '90s, and now T2. It's just not cricket.

[shaynesydney]

Maybe its all a question of perspective. 'Back in the day' (groan), Oxford Street was just wall to wall fruits, the atmosphere was sizzling and there were more than a dozen gay venues in the area: Capprichios' Flo's Palace, Patches, The Shift, The Flinders, Exchange, Beresford, Palms, Jools etc etc etc. Added to that was the exciting feeling that came with being gay; having won some new rights, and standing shoulder to shoulder with other gays to fight for other rights. Those of a younger demographic will only have known the scene as it is now, and not have those heady earlier times to compare it to. For me, to walk down Ocker Street on a weekend night, I have to battle the gamut of hetero-Oz Idol refugees and Miss Maybelline's, pissed secretaries and gangs that look like they've got shit up their nostrils. It is not what I remember as the 'gay golden mile'. But then, I am an old cucka. :D

[ozboyz]

T2 before it's current metamorphosis was being billed as the next gay bar on the strip. I think Maxi did her best to promote it and get the gay crowd in there. It had been reasonable decorated, had a sound system, and like many other bars attempted to do a variety of drag shows. The place seemed to be going for a little while, and then people just stopped going. I just do not know why. Then the place sort of closed down and was re-born as the current T2 which is most definately not a gay bar.

With regards to the history of Oxford Street, as I have said, I have not lived here long enough to really comment fully on that aspect of things, and can only reflect back on the 9 years that I have been here, but the strip really has began to die. The glamour and life that it used to offer is slowly succumbing to the cancer that is straights and generic duff duff music.

Sure the younger crowd will no doubt love what they have and will look back on Oxford Street with the same fondness as those who remember the street back in the early days, but the reality is that the number of gay venues is slowly dwindling, the amount of heterosexual homophobes is increasing, and there is little that can be done about it.

Gay people are put off by the straights, will not venture onto Oxford Street and as a result the venues have to seek revenue from the straight people as they are the ones who are going out. as a result more and more venues will begin to market for the straight community and Oxford Street will loose completely it's gayness, and it's independence.

Also, I do think the internet has contributed to the death of the street. I am generalising here, but I do feel that Gaydar and similar sites have cornered the market for people to pick up without the need to go and troll the bars for trade. As a result of this, it is cheaper to go online and see what is out there and arrange to meet either at a cafe or just to go straight around to the other person home. The days of a bar being a social gathering place is also loosing its meaning in the community.

[danny corvini]

"The cancer that is straights" and "the amount of heterosexual homophobes is increasing" in the same post. Jesus, talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
Can you really compare straights to "cancer" and then complain about homophobia?

[ozboyz]

The reference to the straights as being like cancer was just that, a reference. I was trying to get across that point that one of the reasons that Oxford Street is dying is due to the fact that it is being over run by heterosexual people and that within the street this take over is spreading like a disease such as cancer.

I really do not have a problem with straight people, but I have a problem with straight people who feel the need to make their entertainment centre Oxford Street and then for them to be rude and offensive when they are confronted by the gay scene.

Why go somewhere when you know you are going to see guys and girls together?

[Thatguy]

Yes - Oxford Street is being .... "hetro- fied"

[danny corvini]

So where to from here guys?

I remember visiting Oxford St in the verrrrry early '90s and there were "pink police" (or something to that effect) on patrol. That meant that the community protected the community from homophobia (yes, THAT happened on oxford st, even back then). Lots of businesses would display pink triangle stickers on their front door in the '90s, which meant they were "safe houses" and if you were being being harrassed you could hang out there.

Maybe we need some new community initiatives?

[jasn]

I would really like to see The Oxford hang a rainbow flag from its veranda-style roof outside the main door.

It's only a small idea, and lots of people would probably moan how tacky it is. But it's a simple way make that area a bit brighter and more obvious.

The dude who runs Oxford was in the paper recently saying he agrees with Peel with wanting to turn away straights. Well before he goes to that extreme, he could easily make the exterior more out and proud. A simple rainbow flag would be hot.

[danny corvini]

It's a shame there is no art facility in the area. I think it would be great if there was somewhere for queer artists to express the identity of the area.

[Thatguy]

Hey Danny,

Then problem is not the lack of art expressing the identity of the area - it is the identity of the area itself. Oxford Street itself is a history lesson, it is no longer important because "bar life" is not nearly as central to gay socialising as it once was. You can meet friends or a date from one of the many websites available, at a coffee shop, at the movies or anywhere else.

A gay Oxford Street is dead. Instead we have the whole city.

[Brad]

Hey all - does anyone know what happened yesterday on Oxford St either at Manacle or around the area? I have heard 2 different stories.

The first, was up to 7 gay boys were bashed on the street in a short period of time during the day.

The second, was that there was an incident in Mancale where a few people got bashed.

Anyone know?

[danny corvini]

Jesus!!!!

[Christian Taylor]

i drove past this incident yesterday but had no idea what had gone down. i thought it had been a bust of some sort...

thank god manacle has AWESOME security. given that they share a venue with T2, which has to be one of the most violent, homophobic places in darlinghurst.

look at someone like viv who works the queue on weekends - i unashamedly LOVE that woman. she's fair, she's loyal, she looks after the regulars that keep that place alive and god, how refreshing. if only every nightclub on oxford street had such people on the door - the world (at least Darlinghurst) would be a much better place.

[honey-prawns]

i was at manacle on saturday i cant believe people were bashed on sunday it totally disgusts me this behaviour accours, as much as i hate to admit it aggressive men and drugs are a bad combo. stay away, stop picking on innocent people just trying to have a good time. im with christian im not ashamed to say that i love Viv she is a good woman, where has she gone havent seen her there in a while she is what makes manacle the place to be! if we can believe its not too late to change oxford street and make it gay again lets all come together and make it happen... i have one question, what are you waiting for?

[shaynesydney]

A long, long time ago, the people who ran Link leather shops tried opening a gay gallery in Crown Street. I have to say, there were some amazing shows there, Peter Tully immediately springs to mind. It only lasted about 6 months, I think, there was no market. I wonder what gay men put on their walls. Maybe in these days of minimalist decor, the walls have to be bare. Maybe they are all buying those cheap stretched canvases from the Shite Shops and watching Better Homes and Gardens for instructions on how to be an artist. I just don't get enough Gaydar pickups to offer a reasonable sample. I produce what you would call 'gay art' I suppose and it looks like this: http://www.shaynechesterstudio.com/page7.html I sell enough to keep the cat in Dine. I suppose it'd be over-wrought for me to suggest that a market for gay art would require a community with a gay identity.

[Christian Taylor]

Hey all - does anyone know what happened yesterday on Oxford St either at Manacle or around the area? I have heard 2 different stories.

The first, was up to 7 gay boys were bashed on the street in a short period of time during the day.

The second, was that there was an incident in Mancale where a few people got bashed.

Anyone know?

here's the info brad.
http://www.samesame.com.au/news/local/1169/More_Violence_On_Oxford_Street (http://www.samesame.com.au/news/local/1169/More_Violence_On_Oxford_Street)

[shaynesydney]

We live in a fundamentalist culture where a singular view of how life should be lived is imposed on a pluralistic society - and that naturally creates disharmonies. Our relationship to success, status, god, partners, family, work, friends etc., are all rigidly defined and form a societal and individual identity. Those who find themselves living outside the box are perceived with fear since they challenge that identity. Pope Ratzinger released a papal bull describing how gay men pervert society and Howard has declared that if we were given marriage rights we would threaten the very foundations of hetero marriage. Men like this are no less poofter bashers than the thugs on the streets. Little wonder then, that those with limited intelligence, education or experience can so easily rationalise beating poofters. Our crime is that we do not live in Fairfield, have a trade, have a silent wife (the 'little woman') who stays at home and cooks Chicken Tonight every night, call every living being 'mate', and have three kids called Raeleen, Noeleen and Kylene and barrack for the Rabbitohs. Well, we might do some of those things, but what we do with our winkies is still enough of a threat to the very fabric of our glorious nation, in the feeble minds of the poofter bashers. Its a notion reinforced by our media, to which we mostly acquiesce quite happily. I don't believe any of these attitudes will change while we remain a submissive and fractured community. We seem to have come full circle to the early days of queer politics in the 70's when we actually stood up for ourselves. Maybe the coming protest rally on August 12th would be a good place to start.

[GenesisInVain]

Here! Here! I can say that the same thing is happening with young g's and l's. They've become so apathetic to the cause of standing up for ourselves. They think that the queer politics and protests of the 70's was enough for them..and that they can just cruise along the naughties. I'm sorry but that's not the case. With all this political conservatism and religious fundamentalism, it is not the time to waste opportunity and not voice our cause. It angers me that these young ones don't realise that these policies and religious nuts will affect them in the future. GAH! (the frustration)! They've become to obsessed with themselves and have not a care in the world for anyone else. What has happened to the notions of 'brotherhood' and 'sisterhood'. As the old saying goes united we stand, divided we fall.

[GenesisInVain]

What not a better picture to illustrate our cause

[shaynesydney]

I'm not convinced that attacking one demographic is the best start to 'healing' a fractured community. One of our assets is our diversity, and we should embrace that. Just like in a rainforest there are mighty buttressed oaks and lil piddling creepers and a million other variations, each of which make their contribution to the power of that forest. The journey to acknowledgement, acceptance or equality will see us travelling with all kinds of queers, some will be fabulous, some will be a pain in the arse, some will be passengers. The first step of that journey will need to be accepting ourselves.
Btw., if you are suggesting I need to wear paisley, platforms or a kaftan on Sunday, um, sorry honey, ain't gonna happen.
:)

[Tim D]

What not a better picture to illustrate our cause

Is that pic from the first Mardi Gras?

[Thatguy]

So GenesisInVain - you have raised some interesting points and I agree that the "trouble with young people today" is that they don't know how hard everyone had to fight to be recongnised - to be visable and to gain acknowledgement of their "lifestyle" and relationships. But, that is the point. We have achieved so much, and because of this it "Gay Rights" doesn't matter as much any more. What is left to fight for? Sure, the marriage debate - but that is just a matter of time.

We don't need to heal a fractered community - it is already disappearing. The decline of a Gay Oxford Street is a visable sign of wider changing which are occuring. A loud, proud gay community was so important in the 70's because of the challenges that everyone faced being gay. Now - what are the challenges? It is pretty much a non-issue. Gay activists have been so successful that they are no longer needed. A "seperateness" was so important - but now......it doesn't matter.

Oxford Street is dying because we don't need it anymore.

[danny corvini]

The challenges associated now with being gay (I can't speak for lesbians) are to have the full package - the body, the career etc. Who's got time to protest when we're all so obsessed with getting these things for ourselves lol

[shaynesydney]

well so true danny, i got caught wearing versace last week and now i'm worried i'm going to lose my gay visa.

[danny corvini]

It's so easy for me to judge you right now!

[shaynesydney]

Well who can keep up? One month it's Abercrombie and Filth; the next it's Dolce and Garbage. My poor fingers are bleeding from sewing on labels.

[danny corvini]

It was so good when all you needed was muscles and a bonds tee!

[Thatguy]

Names, names names....... and gay labels

A friend who was visiting Sydney said that when he first arrived he met lot of gay guys - however, he said that after a while it turned out that was only one gay guy here after all - and everyone else was a copy.

What is fueling the focus on "the full package" - looking a certain way and wearing all the right labels? Well, there is a view that gay men are not men at all but something less, something like "pretend-females". So, in response many gay men have embrace the feminine that they are accused of, and have creating a "femine" gay identity.

What is the solution beyond muscles and a bonds tee?
It is about time we reclaimed masculinity

[shaynesydney]

I do not think gay men are "pretend-females". And I don't see any shortage of masculinity in the scenes I hang in. But I do think we are particularly obsessessed with a status anxiety, and no one seems to be enjoying themselves much because of it. I think it also makes this scene about as deep as a piss puddle in a car park sometimes. Still, I don't think change comes from someone saying, 'hey, let's all stop doing that.'

[honey-prawns]

and something that probably has nothing to do with anything - anyone who thinks we don't need gay spaces is crazy.

[Wayne F]

I agree, we do need gay spaces but the death of Oxford Street is not necessarily due to the influx of the wider hetersexual community. From recent personal experience, it is due to bad attitude from young stoney-faced gay barmen and the cold atmosphere and tasteless refurbishing of some venues (The Oxford Hotel and the tacky decor of the Flinders).

Oxford Street has died because of a chronic lack of imagination in the way venues operate. It was safer and better on the strip when all the hotels closed earlier and those who were serious gay party guys and gals went off to the clubs such as Ruby Reds, Capriccio's, Patchs and Flo's which were then exclusively gay, friendly and safe.

[Thatguy]

A lack of imagination has killed Oxford Street?

[remix_addict]

All I want is a tiny sliver of one city in the whole country where I can walk down the street holding my boyfriend's hand without fear of being abused. Is that really too much to ask?

[danny corvini]

I agree, we do need gay spaces but the death of Oxford Street is not necessarily due to the influx of the wider hetersexual community. From recent personal experience, it is due to bad attitude from young stoney-faced gay barmen and the cold atmosphere and tasteless refurbishing of some venues (The Oxford Hotel and the tacky decor of the Flinders).

Oxford Street has died because of a chronic lack of imagination in the way venues operate. It was safer and better on the strip when all the hotels closed earlier and those who were serious gay party guys and gals went off to the clubs such as Ruby Reds, Capriccio's, Patchs and Flo's which were then exclusively gay, friendly and safe.

Hopefully Clover Moore's attempt to take on the AHA and make it easier for new operators to run bars in Sydney will spark a bit of an imagination war that will leave the older, monopalistic venue owners behind scratching their heads at what they're doing wrong.. Fingers crossed that Town Hall and this State Gov take it all the way and knock the Australian Hotels Association back into place like the Cain Gov did in Victoria in the '80s..

[Thatguy]

All I want is a tiny sliver of one city in the whole country where I can walk down the street holding my boyfriend's hand without fear of being abused. Is that really too much to ask?

No - it is not to much to ask!

If you want to live in a world where you can hold your boyfriend's hand while walking down the street, then walk hand in hand with them down the street and you will live in such a world. If you want to live in a world where you can put a photo of your partner on your desk at work, put a photo of your partner on your desk and you will live in such a world.

[honey-prawns]

and now they're closing/relocating manacle - it's only getting worse

[taylor-dayne]

and now they're closing/relocating manacle - it's only getting worse

so - what are we gonna do about it? how much do people want this? are people really willing to fight for our own space?

i personally think it's time we left oxford street behind and started again somewhere else. but we need to LEARN FROM THIS.

[Aries Fairy]

I like your style taylor-dane.

Redfern perhaps? Mr Mary's is a good start.

[djlexiebradfield]

Packing up and leaving is NOT the answer, although that dose seem to be the most popular solution if all the "For Lease" signs are anything to go by, and who could blame them. The only thing that resembles the once proud hub of the community is the name itself.
And WE all have allowed it to happen.
Dose anyone remember the reaction from the community when we heard Fred Nile and his flock were to march up Oxford St to CLENSE it of it's impurities. (The impurities being Us!). I don't think I've ever felt prouder than I did that day.
The street IS WORTH FIGHTING FOR.
It can't be done by a few, it's way beyond that, but it can be done if we want it back badly enough of that I'm sure.
Can't write anymore...I get way to emotional about it

[Tim D]

Hey Lexie, welcome to the discussion. The emotion you feel is a really strong point, and you're not the only one. The question really is all about practical ways.

I really like Maxi's call to Clover to "walk a mile in her shoes" up Oxford Street, anyone know the outcome of that?

[stevenb]

we need some cool bars like Melbourne, where its not all about thumping basslines ( dont get me wrong I love them ) but really where is there to go thats cool, classy, somewhere we can sit and chat and hear each other and not get fucked up on drugs. It seems we are taking more drugs that are responsible for little or less social interaction than ever, and there is Gaydar and ice keeping people at home because there is nothing to drag them out, almost feels like the funs gone...............though maybe its just me, though i am fun lol..anyway just my opinion and ive been on or involved in the scene for quite awhile

[djlexiebradfield]

I don't think walking Clover up the street will have much impact on the situation but I APPLAUD Maxi for writing about it, putting it out there and at least trying something.... it certainly can't hurt.
If more of us started throwing ideas out there to inspire and/or be improved upon etc..Again it can't hurt.
I think the Venue's should go back to hanging/displaying G&L art (the more sexually confronting the better) , and any Themes/Shows to go completely over the top with window displays ,walls,bars etc.
G & L priority bar service, Queue priority , Priority , priority priority
Stop making room or moving to accomodate. We need to regain HIGH visibility and the (dare I say it) straight crowds need to become INVISABLE.
Stop with the "everyone's welcome" attitude because clearly it's not working.
As far as the street violence...maybe it's time to dust off our whistles. to use not just for violence but for protection, assistance or for someone to simply walk with.
We need to be VISIBLE again and to be PROUD of it.
That lump in my throats back so that's it from me.

[Christian Taylor]

Stop with the "everyone's welcome" attitude because clearly it's not working.

Right on Lexie, I agree with you. Am gathering my thoughts about this extremely complex issue - but have some plans up my sleeve to add into the mix.

I don't think moving is the answer. I think the solution is in all of our hands - but we've got some waking up to do.

[Thatguy]

Well, the internet means we don't need as many venues - we have gay spaces online.

Oxford Street has become less important as we have seen the normalisation and stabilisation of gay life during the past 30 years and the maturing of gay male culture. A focus on one street becomes more critical when there is something to fight for.

It is dead, we don't need it.

[DeepBlueDreamer]

I agree the strip is a bit sickening sometimes. King street Newtown is much more friendlier and a mild-mannered experience in contrast.
But I think we still have a need for the strip...hell of a lot more to fight for, and a flagship of Gay culture to show off to the rest of the world.
It's decaying and getting a foul stench, yes...but I think we must save what ours. We wouldn't know what hit us if we lose Oxford street!

[Vanilla_Gorilla]

I'd expect the strip to get swallowed up by the CBD over the next 20 years

[Thatguy]

It is not just Sydney which is facing this

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/services/newspaper/printedition/sunday/goodliving/orl-gaybarssep16,0,4112928.story

In Orlando, four bars are gone -- victims of circumstance and changing times. Within a matter of months, Orlando's gay and lesbian community witnessed its bar scene shrink by a third. Orlando follows a national trend of long-established bars shutting down. In New York, it was the Roxy, where Madonna and Bette Midler performed. In Nashville, The Chute closed after 23 years. Four bars in Minneapolis shut down in the past year. The Suncoast Resort -- St. Petersburg's version of the Parliament House, an Orlando institution -- closed to make room for a Home Depot.

"A gay nightclub is obsolete," said Tuhy, who runs the Beer Bar, a gay neighborhood bar on Edgewater Drive. "It's something that has served its purpose."

Oxford Street is not just dying, it is part of a global trend.

[Stevie Boy]

I think it's ridiculous when people that say there is no need for gay bars anymore as gay culture has changed. Let's face it while it can be fun just hanging out with your friends when you're out it's also nice to have that potential of meeting someone. At least at a gay bar you know most of the guys there like guys so there is little risk of being punched out if you approach someone. I don't think you can say the same for straight or mixed bars. So no matter how accepted gay people become I think there will always be a need for gay bars.

Just take a look at a venue like Slide. It is quite a modern and funky venue (and relatively clean!) compared to some of the other gay options. Because of this it manages to attract a large number of young and often attractive guys (well, most nights). So even among this younger 'hipper' crowd there is obviously still a desire to head out to places like this it's just that there aren't many quality choices when it comes to Sydney gay bars.

New York may have lost the Roxy but there have already been other venues opening since then. Manhattan has a gay venue on just about every corner and a large number of them are of a high standard so you certainly can't say the scene is going downhill there. Same with LA and West Hollywood. Make it NICE and they will still come

[Tim D]

Thatguy, that was a really eye-opening story, thanks for posting it.

It seems like the gay scene worldwide is going through an "adjustment" period, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Stevie Boy]

I like this quote from the article - "If other bars have plasma televisions, gay bars should, too. If other nightclubs have dress and conduct codes, gay nightclubs should, too. If other clubs serve liquor, a gay bar serving beer and wine has a hard time competing."

It harks back to what I was saying about the demand for a higher standard of gay bar. No longer can these venues expect to thrive just because they are gay... people aren't so willing to put up with a stinky, unrenovated dump anymore. They have to offer something decent

[DeepBlueDreamer]

But then Stevie Boy, how do you explain Palms? Low ceiling, non existent sound system (I think they use an old car stereo) and couple of torch lights flashing completely randomly from the corners (music...well...thats a no go!) and yet, the place apparently gets filled every weekend.

[Stevie Boy]

I guess Palms has filled a bit of a niche and has a bit of character. Obviously not every venue has to be brand spanking new to draw a crowd. Sometimes it can be hard to say exactly what makes a certain club succesful. My point was more that there is always going to be a demand for gay bars... as long as the bars are giving the people what they want

[Christian Taylor]

fair enough, give people what they want. for me - i want an unrenovated dump. i want trashy. i want underground with no windows. and i want a crowd that wants that! don't get me wrong, i can appreciate a gorgeous venue, but when it comes to a gay bar i want it dark and underground and hot. lets hope sydney manages to hang onto the few it has left!

[DeepBlueDreamer]

That's Manacle (hope they keep it that way at the new venue) and Phoenix; I think, if I'm reading you correctly Christian.
Imperial (downstairs, the way it was before they closed for renovations) and Oxford downstairs and Arq's vortex doesn't go hard enough and Stonewall top floor is unpredictable.
I completely agree...hope we can hang on to the VERY few venues we have left.

[Christian Taylor]

you're spot on deepbluedreamer. have been reading a few of your posts on here, i like the way you think... :) will i be bumping into you on the manacle dancefloor this weekend?

[DeepBlueDreamer]

Most probably Christian; hope they won't take the chains down till after Monday...God, I'll cry if they do that...

[Thatguy]

Hmmmm.....

People crying about the chains being taken down? Really?

But, it is about more than the chains, it is about the changing nature of gay culture. We are seeing the final death throes of the old Oxford Street, and some guys desperately longing for the good old days.

In other words, say goodbye to anonymous cruising, to dark underground places and say hello to more weddings. Gay culture is changing and Oxford Street is having a hard time staying relevant. You can't have it both ways - if you want marriage, equality and recognition of your relationship then there is nothing underground, nothing special or unique in being gay.

Oxford Street is dying. No offence, but it is true.

[Nevarro]

Things are looking bleak...
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22482076-5001021,00.html


:confused:

[Christian Taylor]

Hmmmm.....

People crying about the chains being taken down? Really?

But, it is about more than the chains, it is about the changing nature of gay culture. We are seeing the final death throes of the old Oxford Street, and some guys desperately longing for the good old days.

In other words, say goodbye to anonymous cruising, to dark underground places and say hello to more weddings. Gay culture is changing and Oxford Street is having a hard time staying relevant. You can't have it both ways - if you want marriage, equality and recognition of your relationship then there is nothing underground, nothing special or unique in being gay.

Oxford Street is dying. No offence, but it is true.

Thatguy, you're obviously on a totally different page. These rituals mean a lot to some people - myself included. It's not just about anonymous cruising and dark corners - it's about community, about the people who inhabit these spaces, about the blurred edges that exist in this world of ours that we've all created. These are far more important to me than chasing "marriage" and being deemed appropriate by the rest of the world. I have the right to equal treatment, no matter how I choose to express my sexuality.

Beats me why one thing has to come at the cost of another. Say hello to more weddings? No thanks. If I want marriage, equality and recognition of my relationship then I have to play nicely and only attend church services and sip chamomile tea in the suburbs? Are you serious? Tell me you're joking.

If you don't see any value or meaning in our community then go elsewhere and integrate, go and have your marriage and babies. No-one's stopping you. But I won't be following you.

PS - See you there DeepBlueDreamer - and the chains will be staying up until they close on Monday - so no need to worry!

[DeepBlueDreamer]

Well said Christian.

I am not sure about what Thatguy is trying to say. Are you saying we should conform to a certain set of post-modern middle class suburban rules? Or that gay culture itself is no longer a sub culture and is integrating to a level that certain aspects of it, originating from the past (i.e. sex in secret dark places etc.) should be removed?
Well, the first one is not acceptable; the second is not really true. Quite a few of the so called “main stream” rituals have roots in sub cultures once frowned at by the majority, including some things we do during Christmas!
I think we can have it both ways…we should have the right to get married and have the reception at phoenix! :D

P.S - Christian, i am soooo looking forward to this Sleaze weekend :-)

[Christian Taylor]

me too. if our culture is on the way out i intend to wring every single drop that i can! (although i am sure there's still a lot of tread left in these tyres...)

a wedding reception at phoenix - that is brilliant! would love to do that. a friend of mine, when she got married in london, had her wedding photos taken on top of an abandoned, burnt out car in a skanky london backstreet. that's how i'd wanna do it.

i love that your status is 'waiting for a revolution' - that makes two of us. :)

[Thatguy]

lol - I like the idea of a reception at phoenix - althought my parents had a wedding reception at a night-club (no wonder I turned out gay)

So - for the record, what I am saying is that gay culture is no longer a sub-culture. What it means to be gay today is no longer the same thing as it did 50, 20 or even 10 years ago. Being gay is no longer a big deal, and therefore the importance of gay spaces is declining. This is part of the reason Oxford Street is dying, it that has had its day and you can try to wring every single drop you can out of it if you want.

Also, for the record, I am not wanting to get married or move to the suburbs.

[Tim D]

Ok I thought it would bring this thread back to life again.

What do we reckon about Oxford Street now - is it starting to change for the better? I spent a few weeks walking up and down the streets and manning a shop front in late November and the biggest difference that I noticed about Oxford Street was the police presence - there was a really huge one leading up to the election, and apparently, staying over the summer.

Have things started to change? Or is the idea of a gay strip just over?

[matrix]

We want to be treating equally within the community right? But we want our "own" street. We can't have both. Either we try and make O Street open for ALL or just make it gay and stop bitching about not being part of general society.

All my friends (and we are all under 28), to be honest don't even go to O St, we hit the regular clubs and dance parties, we have found we can be openly gay there without getting harassed. We find that gay only clubs and dance parties to be pretentious and have a bad attitude.

I think the old days are gone boys and it's time to accept it.

[marly]

Gay guys in the inner city ,eastern suburbs and inner west seem to have a different view of how accepted it is than the rest of us living outside those areas. Outside of these areas its still necessary to hide ones preference in many instances for fear of physical and/or verbal aggression. I live outside of those areas and it feels very isolated and definitely not integrated. I think that until the 56 pieces of legislation that discriminate against us change, the bashings and killings stop and the bashers/killers dont get let off on the grounds that they had a right to do it because the gay guy made a pass at them, the churches stop alienating and dividing people and school bullying of gay boys is eradicated then we will continue to need a gay ghetto and identify ourselves as gay.
The whole idea that we need to try and prove ourselves as being like everyone else and blend in makes me quite angry. I feel like it stems from a need by the straight community to not have us visible. Its much more comfortable if we just blend in and appear asexual. You know the old expression "we dont mind gays but we just dont want it shoved in our faces". Im not like straights, I dont want to be like them and I never will. Im gay and im proud and I want to express it. Ive had to put up with heterosexuality shoved in my face my whole life.

[shaynesydney]

Maybe it's time to rethink the whole 'gay' construct. I think it's wearing a bit thin. Many men happily roger each other up the jaxy without it becoming a political identification, particularly those from other cultures. And younger generations of glbqti have no need for such labels, they grew up dancing in nightclubs with straightie potaties. And I think the idea of 'community' is also a product of the fight for queer rights, and the fight with HIV/AIDS in the 70's and 80's. Now, the scene is dominated by self interested organisations and a whole swathe of queers are simply marginalised.

[matrix]

marly, it's not about being invisible at straight clubs at all, we are all quite openly gay and no one bothers us. We just don't feel the need to be flambouyant queens. We just don't like O Street or having to "act out" just because we like the same sex. Seriously, it's no big deal and it feels good to be in a club that is not exclusively gay and to be yourself without having to worry.

We are not blending in, we are being ourselves and being accepted for it - isn't that what this is all about?

[marly]

marly, it's not about being invisible at straight clubs at all, we are all quite openly gay and no one bothers us. We just don't feel the need to be flambouyant queens. We just don't like O Street or having to "act out" just because we like the same sex. Seriously, it's no big deal and it feels good to be in a club that is not exclusively gay and to be yourself without having to worry.

We are not blending in, we are being ourselves and being accepted for it - isn't that what this is all about?

Im not talking about clubs, Im talking about in general in life which may or may not include clubs. I dont know where you live Matrix but where i live you can not be openly gay at the local pub or shopping centre without getting at the very least sneered and stared at and at the most punched out. I also enjoy mixed clubs but only if I can comfortably and safely express myself by kissing my partner etc
I think your comment about gay clubs being pretentious with bad attitude is a bit of a generalisation and not necessarily a gay club thing but more just a club thing. They do say that nightclubs are full of lost souls so theres bound to be some attitude. Also I think drugs like ice and GHB are rather antisocial and tend to make people aggressive where as ecstasy is a much more social drug. You can really feel the difference when the majority at a club or party are on ecstasy be they gay or straight. Theres smiling and self expression and more friendliness.
I dont feel a need to be flamboyant either but I think if some people want to express themselves that way then they should feel free to without threat. Just because they are flamboyant or effeminate does not mean they arent being themselves. Many transgender people are very flamboyant, it just comes naturally for them just like your non-flamboyance does for you. The way you have used the word queen sounds a bit derisive. I mean at the end of the day we're all queens, be that flamboyant queens, butch queens, suburban queens ,drama queens, scene queens, closet queens or straight acting queens etc. Depending on how you use it, it can be a derogatory term or a term of endearment. Some of my best friends are very flamboyant and most of the time I find it kind of funny. They make me laugh a lot and I cant really imagine them being any other way.
I think that as irritating as it may be sometimes, the fact that gay men feel comfortable expressing and exaggerating their feminine side in a culture so dominated by macho men is a good thing. Its the opposite end of the pendulum. Macho men are just butch queens anyway LOL
Back to the question at hand. I dont think Oxford st is dying. Its more just evolving and I think many gay men and women have given up on it because its a kind of lost cause. However Newtown seems to be getting more gay and many people have been saying for a while that its the new Oxford st. I think Gays generally are always a step ahead anyway and so whilst the straights may take over Oxford st and IMO ruin it with their often yobboish behaviour, the gays have already moved on to bigger and better things.

[Ruffnut]

I think Oxford Street like the Mardi Gras parade are both past their use by dates.......

Times change, people change so lets just pack our bags and move onto greener pastures.....

[marly]

I think Oxford Street like the Mardi Gras parade are both past their use by dates.......

Times change, people change so lets just pack our bags and move onto greener pastures.....

Yes they are starting to smell a bit fetid hehe what street can we take over next besides King st?

[voiceOUT]

Yes they are starting to smell a bit fetid hehe what street can we take over next besides King st?

There are some people who think Oxford St is parse because they think King St is the "new Oxford St". Unfortunately being "accepted" in Newtown has it's perils too. With the closure of the Newtown Hotel and the Imperial being stalwarted there's really not much choice but to venture into inner city straight pubs and bars. Those places are fine I guess if you go to the right ones, but I hazard to guess that if two guys were making out on the dance floor at one of these venues the story could be different.

Besides it's not just about pubs and clubs. We should be able to walk up the street without being harassed and Oxford St was once that kind of place, take it away and yes there will be people who are upset by it... I don't blame them.

For anyone to assume the word "accepted" when they refer to any GLBT person in my books has a level of discrimination to begin with, I certainly don't tell straight people I'm accept them :rolleyes:

Yes, we tend to live in a bubble in the inner suburbs and assume the whole country to be "accepting" of us, but venture out not too far and it's a very different, sometimes violent reality (take the visitors to Oxford St for example).

You can refer to the death of Oxford St but that's just because some people believe they have another venue to turn to (aka King St). Oxford St to many people isn't about gay bars, but more so a representation of what so many campaigned for that so many take for granted today.

Are we truly accepted into the straight community?? No Do we have the same rights?? No The destruction (not simply a death) of Oxford St is a representation of the destruction of our rights. It's not about labelling (why do we call people straight if we're not into labels??) it's about self worth and recognition for who we are as people who are not straight and don't fit into the same legal, social and political rights.

[shaynesydney]

I kind of agree with voiceOUT. It's not as simple as 'many gay men and women have given up on it because its a kind of lost cause' and they are moving to newtown. Maybe the party scene is moving but thousands of glbqti call the Oxford St precinct home; they live there. And they deserve to be able to walk up the street holding their partner's hand without getting a bottle over the back of the head. The new plans to develop an evening economy that appeals to older people and art lovers as opposed to 18- to 25-year-old club and pub goers sounds good to me.The idea is for a promenade where people might simply stroll about.

I think some people here seem to forget that there is more to the gay community than the gay scene, and more to being glbqti than sex and drugs and house music.