Is going to university overrated?

[MattyS]

I am studying at university and have almost completed my degree.

Some of my experience I feel has been beneficial but some of it have been pretty useless.

Do you think university is overrated?

[wysi]

depends on the field of study.

i don't regret doing my degree. i'm happy with my career right now and my technical uni background opened doors for me.

in fact i'm about to complete my post-grad qualifications.

[sneakos]

totally overrated

[TheOldie]

as per Wysi.

Depends on what you are going to do. I know so many with their various diplomas but dont work in that field.

[wysi]

totally overrated

can you elaborate?

surely if you want to become a truck driver in the mines you don't a degree.

but would you go to a 'doctor' who doesn't have a degree?

[Zepol23]

As Wysi said it entirely depends on what your career path is. I did secondary education and as much as it is essential to my career path, i need to admit that the vast majority of education subjects i did were entirely pointless, nevertheless i love uni hooray for post grad shiz.

[NewFarmer]

as per Wysi.

Depends on what you are going to do. I know so many with their various diplomas but dont work in that field.

I'm never convinced that's an argument against going to uni. I studied Social Work and work in PR and media relations (long story, but the transition happened over a couple of jobs). There is some, but not a huge amount of crossover with my studies and where my career has gone, but I couldn't possibly have the career I have without having a degree.

Unless you complete a trade i think you're doing yourself a disservice by skipping uni straight into the workforce. I know many of my peers who skipped their degrees and, with a couple of exceptions amongst some friends who operate their own businesses or work in their families' businesses, their careers languish at a certain point.

Education is increasingly the basis of a fulfilling career and conversely, a lack of education is seriously career limiting in most industries.

[sneakos]

can you elaborate?

uni doesnt teach ppl to be free or critical thinkers and be able to think for themselves

this is prolly left over from th school education system where there is so much pressure to achieve that all some learn how to do is regurgitate rote learned material

dont even get me started on after school tutoring that some parents send their kids to day in day out - from a child protection perspective i believe its abusive, however, given th social contruction of acceptability around it, its gonna stay

so we get these kids that know how to regurgitate some shit theyv learned but dont understand heading into a uni course that they often have no idea about what they want to do with it when there finished - i know there are some exceptions to th rule, but i have taught @ unsw, sydney, macquarie, acu and charles sturt, both full time and part time across th schools of social work, psychology and Aboriginal studies and i continue to see students who have no idea what they want to do and even less of an idea of how to think critrically

th unis are also to blame for their increased class sizes and reduced contact hours. lectures are fine in large halls, but having 20+ students in a tutorial or lab clas is unrealistic and unfair on them. and many sit back wanting the teacher to do th work rather than look for ways to enegage with th content themsleves - cos its been what there used to

i had no idea what i wanted to do @ 18 (apart from use drugs lol :eek:) and i went bac as a mature aged student for both my undergrad and masters once i had some notion of th field i wanted to be in. having said that, i still dont know what i wanna be when i grow up

having a little sandstone cottage in th hills behind byron with an art studio where i can do some art and eek out a living doing that - growing my own vegies etc sounds really appealing

as does living back on a dairy farm - that (for me) was a great life

thats off th top of my head - i could seriously write an essay/thesis across this topic

but for those @ uni, just have fkn fun

th biggest thing i have learned in life is to wear life as a loose garment and have fun along th way and keep connected to th ppl who nurture and support me and vice versa along th journey - all th rest is just bells and whistles

[MarkF]

The only think that took me many years to learn at University was....how to leave.
I started with a science degree, and then nursing, theology, social work and then a couple of post grad qualifications. As I have not done any since my last Master’s degree I think I know that once you finish to never start again.

[wysi]

uni doesnt teach ppl to be free or critical thinkers and be able to think for themselves

this is prolly left over from th school education system where there is so much pressure to achieve that all some learn how to do is regurgitate rote learned material

dont even get me started on after school tutoring that some parents send their kids to day in day out - from a child protection perspective i believe its abusive, however, given th social contruction of acceptability around it, its gonna stay

so we get these kids that know how to regurgitate some shit theyv learned but dont understand heading into a uni course that they often have no idea about what they want to do with it when there finished - i know there are some exceptions to th rule, but i have taught @ unsw, sydney, macquarie, acu and charles sturt, both full time and part time across th schools of social work, psychology and Aboriginal studies and i continue to see students who have no idea what they want to do and even less of an idea of how to think critrically

th unis are also to blame for their increased class sizes and reduced contact hours. lectures are fine in large halls, but having 20+ students in a tutorial or lab clas is unrealistic and unfair on them. and many sit back wanting the teacher to do th work rather than look for ways to enegage with th content themsleves - cos its been what there used to

i had no idea what i wanted to do @ 18 (apart from use drugs lol :eek:) and i went bac as a mature aged student for both my undergrad and masters once i had some notion of th field i wanted to be in. having said that, i still dont know what i wanna be when i grow up

having a little sandstone cottage in th hills behind byron with an art studio where i can do some art and eek out a living doing that - growing my own vegies etc sounds really appealing

as does living back on a dairy farm - that (for me) was a great life

thats off th top of my head - i could seriously write an essay/thesis across this topic

but for those @ uni, just have fkn fun

th biggest thing i have learned in life is to wear life as a loose garment and have fun along th way and keep connected to th ppl who nurture and support me and vice versa along th journey - all th rest is just bells and whistles

i think 'social sciences', 'arts' and similar degrees in uni are useless :eek:

but for highly technical professional fields like medicine, dentistry, engineering, pure and applied natural sciences, accountancy/finance and law, a degree is a minimum requirement in order to advance in one's career. it is also usually these highly technical fields that pay very good money.

[sneakos]

i think 'social sciences', 'arts' and similar degrees in uni are useless :eek:

but for highly technical professional fields like medicine, dentistry, engineering, pure and applied natural sciences, accountancy/finance and law, a degree is a minimum requirement in order to advance in one's career. it is also usually these highly technical fields that pay very good money.

which is prolly why i get paid shit to work with marginalised and vulnerable children, young people and families and i agree to an extent that my degrees - social work and clinical (child and adolescent) masters - are all but useless and would really only be helpful should i wish to go into private practice cos i need AASW or APS registration in order for people who see me to claim bac on medicare - so th degree opens that door

[sneakos]

and ......

where shazzboy when u need him to throw his insight into uni :D

[Fahed]

uni doesnt teach ppl to be free or critical thinkers and be able to think for themselves

this is prolly left over from th school education system where there is so much pressure to achieve that all some learn how to do is regurgitate rote learned material

dont even get me started on after school tutoring that some parents send their kids to day in day out - from a child protection perspective i believe its abusive, however, given th social contruction of acceptability around it, its gonna stay

so we get these kids that know how to regurgitate some shit theyv learned but dont understand heading into a uni course that they often have no idea about what they want to do with it when there finished - i know there are some exceptions to th rule, but i have taught @ unsw, sydney, macquarie, acu and charles sturt, both full time and part time across th schools of social work, psychology and Aboriginal studies and i continue to see students who have no idea what they want to do and even less of an idea of how to think critrically

th unis are also to blame for their increased class sizes and reduced contact hours. lectures are fine in large halls, but having 20+ students in a tutorial or lab clas is unrealistic and unfair on them. and many sit back wanting the teacher to do th work rather than look for ways to enegage with th content themsleves - cos its been what there used to

i had no idea what i wanted to do @ 18 (apart from use drugs lol :eek:) and i went bac as a mature aged student for both my undergrad and masters once i had some notion of th field i wanted to be in. having said that, i still dont know what i wanna be when i grow up

having a little sandstone cottage in th hills behind byron with an art studio where i can do some art and eek out a living doing that - growing my own vegies etc sounds really appealing

as does living back on a dairy farm - that (for me) was a great life

thats off th top of my head - i could seriously write an essay/thesis across this topic

but for those @ uni, just have fkn fun

th biggest thing i have learned in life is to wear life as a loose garment and have fun along th way and keep connected to th ppl who nurture and support me and vice versa along th journey - all th rest is just bells and whistles

I think most of these problems are actually problems with the primary and secondary school systems which are all but useless and do nothing to prepare children for later life. My memories of high school are being sent to the vice principle's office because I 'asked too many questions in class' (seriously though, is any one surprised about this? :p). Many students coming into uni are not receptive to independent learning and critical thought because up until that point they've been taught almost exclusively to do otherwise. How much can a tertiary institution actually do to change that?

I have to agree though that the increased class sizes and the moves to turn universities into degree factories rather than forums of open and free thought are counterproductive to the purpose of tertiary education, and it's becoming a real problem. This leads me neatly to Wysi's comment below:

i think 'social sciences', 'arts' and similar degrees in uni are useless :eek:...

:rolleyes: Knowledge is power. Perhaps the reason many of these degrees have become useless is that the universities no longer cater to this form of education but rather attempt to push as many people through the system as possible to buff up numbers of skilled workers.

I personally think it depends on the person and not at all on the field. Some people make the most out of their education because they realise that it is predominantly a tool for personal development, and partly a time to accrue knowledge about the world. In that light, some experiences will be useful for some but not others. For those that think they've gotten the hard part over by finishing the degree, or do it just to get through it and take home a piece of paper, I imagine later life looks much more daunting - really they just used uni to delay the inevitable growth that was required of them to survive in the real world.

[sneakos]

i hate how ur always rite F :D

its not fair

[Fahed]

i hate how ur always rite F :D

its not fair

Sorry. I work hard at being right all the time. It is fair, because it's pretty much all I've got going for me :p

[wysi]

Sorry. I work hard at being right all the time. It is fair, because it's pretty much all I've got going for me :p

do you also fuck hard? :eek:

[Zepol23]

i think 'social sciences', 'arts' and similar degrees in uni are useless :eek:

but for highly technical professional fields like medicine, dentistry, engineering, pure and applied natural sciences, accountancy/finance and law, a degree is a minimum requirement in order to advance in one's career. it is also usually these highly technical fields that pay very good money.

meany-poo im a prostitute of the arts :*( heres to masters!

[wysi]

meany-poo im a prostitute of the arts :*( heres to masters!

i meant no offense. why get a fine arts degree if you're already a good artist and can make use of talent to immediately make a living.

i was thinking pragmatically. but as F said, it all depends on the person to use knowledge to his/her advantage. because knowledge is power. it's up to everyone to use his/her powers.

[wysi]

I think most of these problems are actually problems with the primary and secondary school systems which are all but useless and do nothing to prepare children for later life. My memories of high school are being sent to the vice principle's office because I 'asked too many questions in class' (seriously though, is any one surprised about this? :p). Many students coming into uni are not receptive to independent learning and critical thought because up until that point they've been taught almost exclusively to do otherwise. How much can a tertiary institution actually do to change that?

I have to agree though that the increased class sizes and the moves to turn universities into degree factories rather than forums of open and free thought are counterproductive to the purpose of tertiary education, and it's becoming a real problem. This leads me neatly to Wysi's comment below:


principal's :p

very common mistake - principle v. principal

anyway...
i'm happy to have come from a university system where 'lectures' are not monotone lectures but rather a forum for debate and discussion. no one was told anything - we're expected to learn things on our own (that's why textbooks exist) and we shouldn't come to class without the expected understanding of the topics beforehand. it's in the class where textbook knowledge was discussed/debated in the context of real-life cases and current developments. and fluffy answers were not acceptable, we needed to back them up with calculations, references and other evidence.

i'm not sure how other unis do it but i've seen in movies the professor is doing mostly of the talking with powerpoint slides and flipcharts. that method, i believe, is ineffective and a major failure.

[Fahed]

do you also fuck hard? :eek:

Depends on the bottom and the mood at the time.

principal's :p

very common mistake - principle v. principal

anyway...
i'm happy to have come from a university system where 'lectures' are not monotone lectures but rather a forum for debate and discussion. no one was told anything - we're expected to learn things on our own (that's why textbooks exist) and we shouldn't come to class without the expected understanding of the topics beforehand. it's in the class where textbook knowledge was discussed/debated in the context of real-life cases and current developments. and fluffy answers were not acceptable, we needed to back them up with calculations, references and other evidence.

i'm not sure how other unis do it but i've seen in movies the professor is doing mostly of the talking with powerpoint slides and flipcharts. that method, i believe, is ineffective and a major failure.

Ah thanks, typing on the fly, plus murphry's law. You know, I arrogantly claimed to be right all the time just a few posts above - it was bound to happen.

I agree. At USYD when I was doing my undergrad, it depended on what subject you were doing. Interestingly, given your earlier statements, I found it was more the arts subjects which followed this style. A few departments had a sort of - lectures give you an outline, tutorials are for open discussion - structure which I suppose is somewhere in between.

[wysi]

i obviously do not know how Australian undergrad courses do it. in my post-grad sessions, it's amazing how many people do not speak up during discussions, and I usually end up filling the void by contributing from real-life experience. most of my classmates are almost fresh grads - with barely a year of experience. i think post-grad courses should have strict work experience entry requirements as well.

[Anthony Mahera]

No. If your looking to advance to the upper echelons of your desired field, it's a def must have. Without it you get to a stage in your career where you "hit the ceiling" and you can not advance without the appropriate qualifications.

So if your really serious about your career and want to reach the top, then I would say that Uni is not overrated. It's a requirement.

[Anthony Mahera]

accountancy/finance, a degree is a minimum requirement in order to advance in one's career. it is also usually these highly technical fields that pay very good money.

Not enough in my opinion, but I'm not an executive either.....

Finance jobs are incredibly stressful too, also a contributing factor to the higher pay rate.

[wysi]

it's only stressful if you're not thoroughly organized and focused in what you're doing :p

i hate multitasking. i concentrate on what i'm doing so i can finish it quickly and with minimal error then i move on with the next task.

[Anthony Mahera]

it's only stressful if you're not thoroughly organized and focused in what you're doing.

Ha! Come work in my office for a day. No matter how organized you are, there's always someone who will throw a spanner in the works.

[Doolander]

It's hard in my industry to not have other people try to dictate your day.

I agree with AM here, especially in my industry where we must work around our clients. Never knowing what their plans are and when they can change.

[andrewc]

With anything, you only get out what you put in! And university isn't just about your degree, particularly undergrad. I only just got through my UG, coz I spent the majority of time involved in an association. Of my peers though I got one of the more sought after Grad jobs, because I had more than just a degree, I had experience running an organisation which taught me how to handle myself interpersonally and not just write an essay on culture shock for expatriates.

Learning is never over rated, whatever form it may take.

[Matt Akersten]

Great topic. I completed my degree before I had any life experience or any inkling what I wanted to do in life. I'd say uni can be beneficial, but get out there and travel/work/experience a little before heading into a few years of study. :-)

[wysi]

i assume you have a journalistic degree?

[Wonderland]

No. If your looking to advance to the upper echelons of your desired field, it's a def must have. Without it you get to a stage in your career where you "hit the ceiling" and you can not advance without the appropriate qualifications.

So if your really serious about your career and want to reach the top, then I would say that Uni is not overrated. It's a requirement.

Bill Gates
Mark Zuckerberg
Michael Dell
Steve Jobs
John D Rockefeller
Warren Buffet
Richard Branson
Alan Sugar
Simon Cowell

[Anthony Mahera]

Bill Gates
Mark Zuckerberg
Michael Dell
Steve Jobs
John D Rockefeller
Warren Buffet
Richard Branson
Alan Sugar
Simon Cowell

I'm talking about a career in an established organization, not self employment.

[Wonderland]

I'm talking about a career in an established organization, not self employment.

Simon Cowell started in the mail room of a record company and worked his way up only to leave with his boss to form a new company.

I think you catch my drift.

[Wonderland]

I'm convinced if you wanna play the corporate game, you absolutely need a uni degree otherwise the boys won't allow you to play with them.
I'm convinced if you have a nose for business, a healthy portion of common sense and a decent drive, you don't need a university degree because you will not wanna play the corporate game and will make it on your own.
I'm convinced certain jobs/professions absolutly require a uni education/degree as wysi said.

If a uni degree isn't backed up by common sense and a decent set of morals, you are more than likely part of and/or to blame for the shitty state of the world's economical affairs.

[Wonderland]

I'm talking about a career in an established organization, not self employment.

These are people who founded huge companies and run/ran them so it's clear in order to found/run or be part of the running of a healthy company, a uni degree is not a must.

Again, I think you catch my drift.

[Anthony Mahera]

Actually there's a difference between working for a "company" and working for an "organization".

There's no way the IMF would hire someone cause they have "common sense".

ps. And I only use that eg cause that where I want to be.........

[Wonderland]

I'm talking about a career in an established organization, not self employment.

Anthony, I hope you realise I am not having a go at you, I only want to discuss this with you coz I feel strongly about what you posted.

The way you said 'not self employment' gives me the impression you think these guys wouldn't make it out in 'the real corporate world', that founding those hugely successful companies is a lot easier and requires less brain power than working in an established organisation.
Or are you agreeing with me that the corporate boys' clubs demand uni degrees before they let you play their game which is absolute rubbish of course, a statement I back up with my long list of billionaires without a uni degree.

[Wonderland]

Actually there's a difference between working for a "company" and working for an "organization".

There's no way the IMF would hire someone cause they have "common sense".

ps. And I only use that eg cause that where I want to be.........

Well, seeing the lamentable state of most economies around the world, maybe they should!

[Dsquare]

I think uni is worthwhile, but as others have said, it depends on the area you want to work in. I have a science degree and there's obviosuly no way I would have been able to work in labs without it, but in my current career, except maybe for basic things like research technique and the best way to document research (and maybe a little bit of anatomy and physiology) my degree is useless.

I was thinking about this the other day. Upper secondary education (as in Years 11 and 12 in NSW) only became "compulsory" in the 1980's during high unemployment, and were a way for employers to reduce the number of applicants, even for jobs that didn't need such a high level of education. Then with the growth of the aspirational middle class in the 90's and early naughties, a university education became the benchmark for having successfully raised a child, whether the child was suited to such a high level of education or not.

Unortunately Australian society has reached a stage where not having a tertiary education and doing a manual job is looked down on as not having achieved. Society needs to realise that it takes all types of people and jobs to make modern civilisation work, and that the person who collects the garbage is just as imporant as the person who runs the multinational corporation in making that happen.

[andrewc]

The entrepreneurs you noted are but a small percentage of the people running/working corporations/governments/NGOs around the world... the significantly larger portion have degrees! Also do you think those entrepreneurs don't value formal education? You think they only hire people without degrees?

[Wonderland]

The entrepreneurs you noted are but a small percentage of the people running/working corporations/governments/NGOs around the world... the significantly larger portion have degrees! Also do you think those entrepreneurs don't value formal education? You think they only hire people without degrees?

No absolutely not, I do think they hire people with degrees.

What I wanted to point out is that a uni degree is not necessary to be successful in certain areas, to run businesses.

Like Dsquare said, science for instance is one of those fields one absolutely needs a degree, no doubt about that.

And let me - once again - point out the sad state of affairs of many of the world's economies. IMO that's because common sense and decent morals are not highly regarded in the corporate world.

[Wonderland]

Unortunately Australian society has reached a stage where not having a tertiary education and doing a manual job is looked down on as not having achieved. Society needs to realise that it takes all types of people and jobs to make modern civilisation work, and that the person who collects the garbage is just as imporant as the person who runs the multinational corporation in making that happen.

Allow me to go a step further:
What if the garbage man didn't show up for work for two months and nobody took over his job?
What if the CEO didn't show up for work for two months and nobody took over his job?
When would we be fucked the most?
Why doesn't salary reflect that reality?

[Anthony Mahera]

common sense and decent morals are not highly regarded in the corporate world.

This, I do agree with.

[Wonderland]

The entrepreneurs you noted are but a small percentage of the people running/working corporations/governments/NGOs around the world... the significantly larger portion have degrees! Also do you think those entrepreneurs don't value formal education? You think they only hire people without degrees?

'The entrepreneurs', you mean the CEO's of hugely successful companies?

Maybe they're only a small percentage of the people running the show/working for corps/govts/NGO's but they are not a small percentage when looking at the list of billionaires.

[Wonderland]

This, I do agree with.

And everything else you disagree with? :p
That's cool too, I love to hear other people's opinions and I love to defend mine with a passion :D

[Anthony Mahera]

These billionaires you speak off,

To my understanding they have been successful in regards to one idea/product/service, making enough money to hire people (most likely with degrees) to expand on thier single idea/product/service which has developed into a hugely successful enterprise.

[Wonderland]

These billionaires you speak off,

To my understanding they have been successful in regards to one idea/product/service, making enough money to hire people (most likely with degrees) to expand on thier single idea/product/service which has developed into a hugely successful enterprise.

We all know Apple=Steve Jobs, for example. Apple was his 'child' until the day he died. Apple would not have been so hugely successful if it weren't for that one man.

They're all brilliant minds and prime examples of my belief that in order to be successful in the corporate world, a uni degree is of no importance whatsoever.

[wysi]

We all know Apple=Steve Jobs, for example. Apple was his 'child' until the day he died. Apple would not have been so hugely successful if it weren't for that one man.

They're all brilliant minds and prime examples of my belief that in order to be successful in the corporate world, a uni degree is of no importance whatsoever.

those people are a few exceptions. in general, those without a degree on average earn less than those with a degree.

[Wonderland]

those people are a few exceptions. in general, those without a degree on average earn less than those with a degree.

They are NOT exceptions on the billionaires' list. Does that not ring a bell?
The uni degree people indeed earn more than the no uni degree folk and maybe that should change coz the world economies are not doing well, something I have said many times before but people chose to ignore that fact. And guess who's running the show..

[wysi]

huh? out of thousands* of the world's billionaires, how many have degrees? i know those people mentioned are popular, and some of them at least even entered Harvard to earn a degree.

*yes there are at least 1,153 people in the world who are billionaires.

[Wonderland]

huh? out of thousands of the world's billionaires, how many have degrees?

yes there are at least 1,153 people in the world who are billionaires.

They are at the top of the list. Small detail?

On another note, here's what I have to deal with whilst trying to have a discussion with you and others:


http://forum.justusboys.com/forum/images/smilies/shake.gif

*** hmmmmm… increasing suspicion that the secretive poster above is another of the vile wysiwyg's secret clones with a different IP address and another secret profile***

Me being the 'secretive' poster. :rolleyes:

[wysi]

Ignore Mark_

he is a stupid sad creature who pretends to be this:

http://forum.justusboys.com/forum/customprofilepics/profilepic359355_7.gif

[badamj2000]

I have an education ( Arts) while so many just have a trade ( ie all the other dull courses like Business and Science etc ).
Should we just have use- pays MacDonalds universities? Are OZ unis merely educating the rest of the worlds kids so they can takeover?
What are the winning lotto numbers for the 30th June?

[wysi]

you don't need a degree to make riches in the mines, my dear ;)

[badamj2000]

WIll you mine my pits dear?

[Wonderland]

Ignore Mark_

he is a stupid sad creature who pretends to be this:

http://forum.justusboys.com/forum/customprofilepics/profilepic359355_7.gif

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/254/517/a70.gif

[Wonderland]

Umm, the worlds economic problems are financial in nature and do not have anything to do with any other profession which requires a degree.

Oooh Anthony, the world economic problems are caused by, let's use some very simple words, dumb and arrogant people with an overinflated ego not backed up by any intelligence, common sense or moral values resulting in of the biggest and worst financial mess the world has known.

[Wonderland]

Ignore Mark_

he is a stupid sad creature who pretends to be this:

http://forum.justusboys.com/forum/customprofilepics/profilepic359355_7.gif

I forgot to comment on the interior 'design': dude, WTF??

[NewFarmer]

Bill Gates
Mark Zuckerberg
Michael Dell
Steve Jobs
John D Rockefeller
Warren Buffet
Richard Branson
Alan Sugar
Simon Cowell

that's a totally representative list of the average expected career trajectory of a non-university educated professional.

[Wonderland]

that's a totally representative list of the average expected career trajectory of a non-university educated professional.

No, that is a list that proofs my point: it is absolutely not necessary to have a uni degree to do well in the corporate world.

[Wonderland]

that's a totally representative list of the average expected career trajectory of a non-university educated professional.

What a rubbish comment. Pfff

[sneakos]

What are the winning lotto numbers for the 30th June?

4 7 8 16 31 36 sups 9 22

[badamj2000]

Are you all saying that capitalism doesn't work comrades/mates?

[badamj2000]

4 7 8 16 31 36 sups 9 22

I hope you remember me if you win? I am rather needy

[badamj2000]

I forgot to comment on the interior 'design': dude, WTF??

Where did this picture come from?
Where are the px of Wysy? THe many faces of wysy?Such deep murky unfruitful waters...tsk...

I have a new white laptop thingie..I had to have it as it was on special.

[Anthony Mahera]

No, that is a list that proofs my point: it is absolutely not necessary to have a uni degree to do well in the corporate world.

Not all jobs are in a corporate environment and money doesn't equate to success to everyone.

[wysi]

Where did this picture come from?
Where are the px of Wysy? THe many faces of wysy?Such deep murky unfruitful waters...tsk...

I have a new white laptop thingie..I had to have it as it was on special.

This is Mark_'s profile picture in the US forum he participates in:

http://forum.justusboys.com/forum/customprofilepics/profilepic359355_7.gif

[wysi]

4 7 8 16 31 36 sups 9 22

thanks for the suggestment.

[Wonderland]

Not all jobs are in a corporate environment and money doesn't equate to success to everyone.

Well they are successful in their branch, products are being bought/services are being used by loads of ppl but I agree, money does most certainly not always equate success but most corporate business are in it for the money..

[Fahed]

I absolutely agree with Wonderland that you don't need a uni degree to be financially successful in most industries. Just a few issues though:

...If a uni degree isn't backed up by common sense and a decent set of morals, you are more than likely part of and/or to blame for the shitty state of the world's economical affairs.

What's common sense?

Allow me to go a step further:
What if the garbage man didn't show up for work for two months and nobody took over his job?
What if the CEO didn't show up for work for two months and nobody took over his job?
When would we be fucked the most?
Why doesn't salary reflect that reality?

Maybe it depends who 'we' are. if 'we' live in the garbage man's area vs if 'we' work in the CEO's company.

The salary reflects supply vs demand. The CEO can request such a ridiculous amount because he knows there are very few people in the world who can successfully do what he does. We're rewarding him retrospectively for his past efforts, and more specifically, for his past successes. Anyone can do the garbage man's job. Furthermore, the movements of a CEO in a large corporation often has ripple effects and trickle down effects throughout the economy.

Taking all this into account, more people would definitely be more affected by the CEO missing work than the garbage man missing work. The garbage man is easily replaceable and the CEO's actions affect far more people.

I'm not trying to suggest that the system is fair, just pointing out what is. I'm not entirely sure it has to be fair, or that fair really exists or even makes any sense, but that's perhaps another story.



Regarding the GFC and the bad economy, if there are all these successful people in the economy without degrees, why aren't they to blame in any way for the state of the economy? Why is it all down to the ones with degrees? If you agree that they are, then going to uni has nothing to do with the GFC. As you said, morally questionable and poor choices are the problem, and nobody said going to university made anyone perfect.

4 7 8 16 31 36 sups 9 22

Watch this space. I've got a lucky feeling about this. Sneaky, just for this show of support, cut me in for a quarter right? :)

[MyBoyFreindIsGay]

Going to University is overrated.

Going to University and getting good marks is underrated.

[Wonderland]

I absolutely agree with Wonderland that you don't need a uni degree to be financially successful in most industries. Just a few issues though:



What's common sense?



Maybe it depends who 'we' are. if 'we' live in the garbage man's area vs if 'we' work in the CEO's company.

The salary reflects supply vs demand. The CEO can request such a ridiculous amount because he knows there are very few people in the world who can successfully do what he does. We're rewarding him retrospectively for his past efforts, and more specifically, for his past successes. Anyone can do the garbage man's job. Furthermore, the movements of a CEO in a large corporation often has ripple effects and trickle down effects throughout the economy.

Taking all this into account, more people would definitely be more affected by the CEO missing work than the garbage man missing work. The garbage man is easily replaceable and the CEO's actions affect far more people.

I'm not trying to suggest that the system is fair, just pointing out what is. I'm not entirely sure it has to be fair, or that fair really exists or even makes any sense, but that's perhaps another story.



Regarding the GFC and the bad economy, if there are all these successful people in the economy without degrees, why aren't they to blame in any way for the state of the economy? Why is it all down to the ones with degrees? If you agree that they are, then going to uni has nothing to do with the GFC. As you said, morally questionable and poor choices are the problem, and nobody said going to university made anyone perfect.



Watch this space. I've got a lucky feeling about this. Sneaky, just for this show of support, cut me in for a quarter right? :)

Common sense is the following to me: "sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts".
Logical thinking based on facts is common sense. No hot air.
The huge mistakes banks have made in the past for example is not an example of common sense. Building your house on an air bubble is not common sense.

Ask the people of Napoli what they think of the garbage men not turning up to work for weeks or even months.

I am sorry I do not share your high regards of CEOs in general. I love and respect the selfmade (wo)man. People who know the business inside out. People who did the hard graft. People who do not think it's their birth right to get a CEO job.

I respect ANYONE who does a decent job, from the garbage man to the CEO but I know for a fact the garbage man is not a greedy bastard who can be held responsible for the shitty situation the world is in today. Well maybe in Napoli he can be held responsible ;)

Like I said before, the people without a uni degree are not allowed to play in the big boys' club so are hardly in a situation where they can make big decisions that are gonna effect the running of the business.

CEOs lose touch with reality all too often. I wish I could sit down with you and tell you some firsthand stories.

I am not frustrated or jealous. I am just so over the big egos (more ego than common sense) running the show, ruling the world.

Interesting:
http://www.policymic.com/articles/4881/why-politicians-and-ceos-make-bad-decisions
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-44341439/why-rich-and-powerful-ceos-make-bad-decisions/
http://bsr.london.edu/lbs-article/145/index.html

[Fahed]

Common sense is the following to me: "sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts".
Logical thinking based on facts is common sense. No hot air...

What constitutes a 'sound and prudent' judgement? Who decides if it is sound or prudent? If you mean logically sound, how many life decisions are realistically made using deductive reasoning? Is this a practical way to make decisions given that decisions frequently need to be made with incomplete information and in a limited amount of time?

There is nothing common about logical thinking based on facts, not in either sense of the word. Given, furthermore, the inherent complexity of most situations in life, it would seem illogical to come to some judgement based on 'a simple perception' of anything.

All of this rhetoric is really just to make one point - you are seriously over-simplifying something which is incredibly complex. 'Common sense', whatever that is, is not sufficient to get anywhere in life (unless you define common sense as 'everything you need to get somewhere in life' ;))

...I am sorry I do not share your high regards of CEOs in general. I love and respect the selfmade (wo)man. People who know the business inside out. People who did the hard graft. People who do not think it's their birth right to get a CEO job.

I respect ANYONE who does a decent job, from the garbage man to the CEO but I know for a fact the garbage man is not a greedy bastard who can be held responsible for the shitty situation the world is in today. Well maybe in Napoli he can be held responsible ;)...

I never said anything about high regard or respect or anything of the sort. I was just stating facts as I see them, attempting to be as objective as possible. My post didn't really contain my opinion on the matter at all, and I think my opinion is irrelevant anyway. Of course, there are plenty of selfmade individuals who are CEOs.

...Like I said before, the people without a uni degree are not allowed to play in the big boys' club so are hardly in a situation where they can make big decisions that are gonna effect the running of the business...

It cannot both be true that people without a university education are able to be successful and run major corporations, and that they have nothing to do with any problems in the economy. If they're part of the story, then they are just as likely to have contributed to the mistakes as those who got a university education. The crisis was not purely the fault of banks. The Subprime mortgage crisis that you've referred to was one part of the problem.

CEOs lose touch with reality all too often. I wish I could sit down with you and tell you some firsthand stories.

There's no need, I believe you and agree with you. I'm just not sure what any of this has to do with going to university, which is the point we were discussing to begin with.

[Wonderland]

What constitutes a 'sound and prudent' judgement? Who decides if it is sound or prudent? If you mean logically sound, how many life decisions are realistically made using deductive reasoning? Is this a practical way to make decisions given that decisions frequently need to be made with incomplete information and in a limited amount of time?

There is nothing common about logical thinking based on facts, not in either sense of the word. Given, furthermore, the inherent complexity of most situations in life, it would seem illogical to come to some judgement based on 'a simple perception' of anything.

All of this rhetoric is really just to make one point - you are seriously over-simplifying something which is incredibly complex. 'Common sense', whatever that is, is not sufficient to get anywhere in life (unless you define common sense as 'everything you need to get somewhere in life' ;))



I never said anything about high regard or respect or anything of the sort. I was just stating facts as I see them, attempting to be as objective as possible. My post didn't really contain my opinion on the matter at all, and I think my opinion is irrelevant anyway. Of course, there are plenty of selfmade individuals who are CEOs.



It cannot both be true that people without a university education are able to be successful and run major corporations, and that they have nothing to do with any problems in the economy. If they're part of the story, then they are just as likely to have contributed to the mistakes as those who got a university education. The crisis was not purely the fault of banks. The Subprime mortgage crisis that you've referred to was one part of the problem.



There's no need, I believe you and agree with you. I'm just not sure what any of this has to do with going to university, which is the point we were discussing to begin with.

It is obvious that the wrong people have been deciding on what is sound and prudent. Re the global crisis. I'm amazed you didn't realise that yourself.
It is absolutely practical to use common sense coz when you don't have all the information but quite frankly, you should never make life altering decision when you don't have all the information (very good example of the importance of common sense). What else have you got to hold on to if not facts and figures? Hot air is not good for holding on to. For counting on. For building on.

You are trying to make it sound so much more difficult than it actually is. It's a game of numbers and (way too many fucked) emotions caused by egos that need constant feeding.
The global crisis was caused by corporate psychopaths. Another person blamed 'stupidity and greed'. I agree.

The funny thing is: the men I listed all have financially healthy businesses, I still have to find people without a uni degree that are running a corporation into the ground. All I came across was successful businessmen/businesses when googling. Funny that.

I flip houses for a living. I am not gonna boast about my financial success, I use it as proof of my point. And no Fahed, it's not coz my business is small(ish) that I should apply different rules to myself compared to big corporations. Like I said: common sense is what makes me make money. Common sense keeps my bank balance healthy. Common sense buys me new houses all the time. Common sense pays my guys and ensures that the good ones continue to work with/for me.
Numbers rule the business and I can tell you, if I don't make sound and prudent decisions, I lose money. Lots of it.
Let me also tell you that until now, I have made money on every single house I flipped (and I have flipped a lot of houses until now). Why? Coz I use my common sense.
I am not surprised you would question such a simple concept as 'common sense'. Doesn't suit the high flyer. Doesn't make one look or sound fancy. Big words are more important to some of 'm, I prefer big numbers especially on my bank statements.

If common sense would have ruled, the global crisis would still be something that happened in the '30s in people's minds.

[Wonderland]

A few interesting articles IMO:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/opinion/common-sense-lost-in-world-of-fat-cat-bureaucrats/story-fnc2jivw-1226346245972

http://wiefling.com/newsletter-why-common-sense-is-no-common-practice/

[Wonderland]

Needless to say I love these articles but will you read them Fahed?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/brian-basham-beware-corporate-psychopaths--they-are-still-occupying-positions-of-power-6282502.html

http://siivola.org/monte/papers_grouped/uncopyrighted/Misc/corporate_psychopathy.htm

http://www.businesslive.co.za/businessexchange/2012/03/26/psychopaths-flourish-at-top-of-corporate-ladder

Needless to say you have 'm with or without uni degrees but seeing as a uni degree is an absolute must to climb the corporate ladder (join the boys' club)... What can I say? It's a tragedy.

[Fahed]

It is obvious that the wrong people have been deciding on what is sound and prudent. Re the global crisis. I'm amazed you didn't realise that yourself.

Who gets to decide who is the right person? You seem to be implying that we need to look at the consequences in order to decide who is a good decision maker, but before something goes wrong, how can we know? Some of the people who made bad decisions leading to the GCF made plenty of good decisions for years before that, and many of us benefited as a result of these good decisions (mostly they benefited, but some benefits were gained by us as well). I am not excusing poor decision making, I am pointing out that it has nothing to do with going to university. What university does do is pass on knowledge from the history of human achievement in the hopes of minimising errors in the decision making process. This does not make anybody perfect.

There is a considerable body of literature about what makes a good decision making process - going to university is not one of the indicators of bad decision making. All humans have certain systematic biases when making decisions. A good decision maker is one who is aware of these biases and able to counteract it with solid logical thought based on the facts that are available to them, while taking into consideration what information they do not have, as well as what information they don't even know they don't have. One common decision making error is assuming you have all the information (this is one way decision makers inflate their own confidence in the decisions they make, just to link this to one of your articles), which brings me to:

It is absolutely practical to use common sense coz when you don't have all the information but quite frankly, you should never make life altering decision when you don't have all the information (very good example of the importance of common sense). What else have you got to hold on to if not facts and figures? Hot air is not good for holding on to. For counting on. For building on.

I still don't understand what you mean by 'common sense'. From the way you describe it, it seems to be this mythical pool of knowledge that contains all the answers. You gave a definition earlier but didn't explain who gets to decide what is common sense and what isn't. I.e. if common sense is "sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts", you have yet to explain what constitutes a 'sound and prudent judgement', who gets to decide what is 'sound and prudent'? What criteria do they use to decide that a decision is 'sound and prudent', keeping in mind that the decision is yet to be made (i.e. before the outcome of the decision can be used as a criterion for deciding that the decision was 'sound and prudent'). Who decides which criteria are the right ones to use? Does the decider use common sense, I wonder, to decide if something is 'sound and prudent'? Obviously not - that would be circular - using common sense to decide what constitutes common sense. I also wonder how conflicts in 'a simple perception of the situation or facts' would be resolved, and, given that you are a proponent of having 'all the information', how a person is supposed to extract all the complex information necessary with just 'a simple perception'?

You are trying to make it sound so much more difficult than it actually is.

If this were true, then any sensible adult could run the economy or any of the countries in the world. This is clearly not the case. I'm not saying that the people making all these decisions are brilliant geniuses who are perfect in every way, but let's not go to the other extreme and just assume that their job is basic and can be taken on by just anybody.

It's a game of numbers and (way too many fucked) emotions caused by egos that need constant feeding.
The global crisis was caused by corporate psychopaths. Another person blamed 'stupidity and greed'. I agree.

There's a lot of truth to this. These are human attributes/flaws however, and are not learned in a lecture hall.

The funny thing is: the men I listed all have financially healthy businesses, I still have to find people without a uni degree that are running a corporation into the ground. All I came across was successful businessmen/businesses when googling. Funny that.

Yes they do. Could it be that all the ones who didn't make it in the world of business also didn't make it into a google search?

I flip houses for a living. I am not gonna boast about my financial success, I use it as proof of my point. And no Fahed, it's not coz my business is small(ish) that I should apply different rules to myself compared to big corporations.

You really should apply different rules to yourself. At least to the extent that you must have noticed that as your business grows, so too does the difficulty of managing it and the amount of responsibility that you need to wrestle with, and the growth of each separately is not necessarily linear, nor do the two difficulties grow in parallel.

Like I said: common sense is what makes me make money. Common sense keeps my bank balance healthy. Common sense buys me new houses all the time. Common sense pays my guys and ensures that the good ones continue to work with/for me.

No it doesn't. That is what you do, and you do it by drawing on your own knowledge and experience, and the lessons you've learned from making mistakes in the past. There is nothing 'common' about this kind of sense as it is highly particular to you and those who have been similarly educated as you have (I'm not referring to tertiary education here, but the education you receive from life experience and from listening to others who have gone before you. The articles you posted on here are a perfect example of this kind of unstructured (which is not to say inferior in any way) education). I have to say, I'm really confused now because the mystical pool of knowledge appears to have grown arms and a face and has taken over your business :p. I'm kidding, I understand you're reifying to make a point, but I kid to emphasise my own point: that you are giving far too much credit to something which you haven't even been able to define.


I am not surprised you would question such a simple concept as 'common sense'. Doesn't suit the high flyer. Doesn't make one look or sound fancy. Big words are more important to some of 'm, I prefer big numbers especially on my bank statements.

I'm not a high flyer, I work at a university as a scientist. I question "such a simple concept as 'common sense'" because I question everything - it is something I enjoy doing, and a big part of my everyday job. Can I just take this opportunity to say that this discussion is not supposed to be personal. Please don't make it personal by making subtle attacks on my character, or perhaps be careful how you word your arguments if that wasn't what you were intending to do. Just to clarify: whether or not I am a 'high flyer' is irrelevant. The validity of my argument does not depend in any way on my personal character or identity, just as the validity of your argument is in no way supported by your choice of occupation, or any other attributes you might have. I'd also like to point out, that all of the people you admire so much, and have listed above are 'high flyers', and I say, good for them ;). I hope one day, if it's what you want for yourself, that we can say the same thing about you.

Needless to say I love these articles but will you read them Fahed?

I've actually read everything you've posted (including the three articles in the post you made last night). I didn't comment on them because I didn't see the relevance of those articles to being a university graduate - which is the topic of this thread.

Needless to say you have 'm with or without uni degrees but seeing as a uni degree is an absolute must to climb the corporate ladder (join the boys' club)... What can I say? It's a tragedy.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Yes, it seems unfair doesn't it, when uni graduates still make mistakes? The idea, I guess, is that at least if we've put them through formal education, we can hopefully ensure they are aware. It is impossible to eradicate human error, but perhaps we can have some control over minimising it?

Just a general point I would like to make:
Being successful in almost every avenue in life involves taking at least some risk. Good decision makers take calculated risks with contingency plans in case the risk doesn't pay out. However, risk by it's very definition involves the possibility of failure and even with a contingency, things may still go wrong. One (sensible) strategy is to attempt to minimise risk as much as possible. However, as many people know, frequently, the bigger the risk taken, the greater the rewards accumulated sooner. I haven't read it, but I have heard of research done which found that, in the long run, individuals who take big risks and ride the rollercoaster of success and failure make as much progress and as much money overall as those who sensibly control their risks and make gradual progress towards their goals. However, as we have seen in recent times, one strategy definitely has a much greater negative effect on the rest of society than the other.

[flounder]

Being successful in almost every avenue in life involves taking at least some risk. Good decision makers take calculated risks with contingency plans in case the risk doesn't pay out. However, risk by it's very definition involves the possibility of failure and even with a contingency, things may still go wrong. One (sensible) strategy is to attempt to minimise risk as much as possible.

Good decision makers also as much as possible factor in unintended consequences or collateral damage, however by its own definition its a moving feast and not easy to quantify.

I have no idea what I just said, I was trying to impress Fahed. :confused:

[Fahed]

...I have no idea what I just said, I was trying to impress Fahed. :confused:

Babe, you've already more than impressed me ;)

[andrewc]

One of the contributors to the Global Financial Correction was that the risk models being used by the investment banks did not consider that such a large correction in the market could occur. Statistically speaking the likelihood of an event like '98 occuring was so off the charts it was never included in the models. In essence the models being used to run those companies was so flawed that they couldn't predict such an event nor survive one if it occurred. Which is why we saw so many banks collapse.

This was something I learned at university.

[badamj2000]

Is it all somehow my fault? It usually is...

[flounder]

Is it all somehow my fault? It usually is...

Give the man a teddy bear. ;)

[Wonderland]

I had a long reply ready to be sent and whilst googling to help you out with the concept of 'common sense', I came across something really interesting.

I will let Ludwig von Mises do the talking. Not a small fish so should have some credibility.

“Many who are self-taught far excel the doctors, masters, and bachelors of the most renowned universities.”
― Ludwig von Mises

I am confident enough to rest my case, thanks to good ol' Ludwig, my list of extremely successful businessmen and last but not least my own ridiculously lucrative business.


PS: some funny quotes I wanted to share with you

“Science is a first-rate piece of furniture for a man's upper chamber, if he has common sense on the ground floor.”
― Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.

“Common sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom.”
― Samuel Taylor Coleridge

“Common sense (which, in truth, is very uncommon) is the best sense I know of: abide by it; it will counsel you best.”
― Philip Dormer Stanhope

“Knowledge counts but common sense matters.”
― LouAnne Johnson

“Success is more a function of consistent common sense than it is of genius.”
― An Wang

“What it takes to do a job will not be learned from management courses. It is principally a matter of experience, the proper attitude, and common sense — none of which can be taught in a classroom... Human experience shows that people, not organizations or management systems, get things done.”
― Hyman G. Rickover

“It was not curiosity that killed the goose who laid the golden egg, but an insatiable greed that devoured common sense.”
― E.A. Bucchianeri


“Science is a tool of Common Sense. When we insist that all valid information come from science or doctors, Common Sense becomes uncommon or lost forever.”
― Richard Diaz


This one's for you Fahed, I now understand why you don't get the concept of common sense: :D

“The history of science is the saga of nature defying common sense.”
― Kedar Joshi

And this one you are gonna love! I don't agree with it but wanted to share it with you nevertheless:)

“He had a better mind and a more rigorous temperament than me; he thought logically, and then acted on the conclusion of logical thought. Whereas most of us, I suspect, do the opposite: we make an instinctive decision, then build up an infrastructure of reasoning to justify it. And call the result common sense.”
― Julian Barnes

[badamj2000]

OMG, what could it all mean?

[Fahed]

Wonderland, I'm honestly not being an arsehole, but you've really misunderstood both what I'm saying and why. I won't bother with repeating what I'm saying above, since you can always just reread my earlier posts (if you care enough). I just want to raise a small point regarding why. To do this I will quote my last post:

...The validity of my argument does not depend in any way on my personal character or identity, just as the validity of your argument is in no way supported by your choice of occupation, or any other attributes you might have. ...

and now:

...I will let Ludwig von Mises do the talking. Not a small fish so should have some credibility.
...

I don't care who he is or what he has achieved :). I'd like to see the evidence behind that quote. I would argue that many of the doctors, masters and bachelors in the most renowned universities are self-taught. I know for me, university was just place where I did my learning, I certainly never followed the syllabus. I wasn't the only one either.

...“He had a better mind and a more rigorous temperament than me;he thought logically, and then acted on the conclusion of logical thought. Whereas most of us, I suspect, do the opposite: we make an instinctive decision, then build up an infrastructure of reasoning to justify it. And call the result common sense.”
― Julian Barnes

This is close to what I was trying to say. I took it perhaps a step further in that I believe rather than 'having a better mind and more rigorous temperament' (which might be true), this 'He' that Julian Barnes refers to was simply more aware of some of the thought processes which underlay what other people refer to as 'an instinctive decision'. Common sense is neither common, nor a sense. Ok I lied, I repeated what I was saying above. Sue me, as soon as I get out of this court case with flounder.

[wysi]

this thread has become academic.

[Wonderland]

Wonderland, I'm honestly not being an arsehole, but you've really misunderstood both what I'm saying and why. I won't bother with repeating what I'm saying above, since you can always just reread my earlier posts (if you care enough). I just want to raise a small point regarding why. To do this I will quote my last post:



and now:



I don't care who he is or what he has achieved :). I'd like to see the evidence behind that quote. I would argue that many of the doctors, masters and bachelors in the most renowned universities are self-taught. I know for me, university was just place where I did my learning, I certainly never followed the syllabus. I wasn't the only one either.



This is close to what I was trying to say. I took it perhaps a step further in that I believe rather than 'having a better mind and more rigorous temperament' (which might be true), this 'He' that Julian Barnes refers to was simply more aware of some of the thought processes which underlay what other people refer to as 'an instinctive decision'. Common sense is neither common, nor a sense. Ok I lied, I repeated what I was saying above. Sue me, as soon as I get out of this court case with flounder.

Let's agree to disagree Fahed. You have your opinions, I have mine. You are not 100% right and I am not 100% right. You chose one quote against all the others but really, who cares at the end of the day?

I got houses to flip, money to bank (but not for too long or the uni degree holders will steal it! :eek:).
Sorry Fahed, I could not help myself. :D

[Wonderland]

And just for the record and if anyone cares: I came on here to disagree with the fact that people need a uni degree to make it in the corporate world.

I am NOT a uni degree basher although I have seemed to have tried my best to look like one..
I am in favour of anyone making a go of it in their field. Blue collar, white collar, hot shot, not so hot shot, all's cool unless of you're a crook.

Thought I'd just share that with you.

[flounder]

Sue me, as soon as I get out of this court case with flounder.

So your seriously going to go ahead with this trivial matter? Fine then, contact my lawyers "Cashbackonaquittal and Son" :mad: