The good and bad of our GLBTQi community

[davewb]

The Good: when we come together and it works, diversity with a sense of community is a wonderful experience. Let's see - Aussie day anti homophobia rally, BGF glambar at the MG, Stonewall during the week, Heaven @ Rosehill Bowling Club, samesame.com.au.....I'm sure there are many other activities that create a sense of community.

The Bad: Current trend towards heteronormativity. Some see the classic 'queer' culture as negative and detrimental to our acceptance in the wider community. My view is - if we can't be accepted on our terms, then f$%k 'em!

Commodification of our community: in the pursuit of profit, companies have ID'ed us as having high incomes etc and they want it! A range of companies target us for our $$$$. Some may see it as a sign of 'acceptance', but I tend to see as exploiting a culture for their own financial gain. It wouldn't be so bad if they represented our diversity but no, we mostly get stereotypical, heteronormative images of what being a gay man is. Lesbians and transgendered persons don't seem to get represented at all :-(

[caloanwalker]

I think you might find you forgot to mention the ultimate BAD in our community: me.

I'd like to know how many other people actually hate the new villain: not Lex Luthor, but me, Caloan Walker.

It would actually make a good villain's name, wouldn't it? It bares a loathing to it, doesn't it? Might send an email to Perry Moore to make me the next villain to fight Thom in his next book.

[honest]

... we mostly get stereotypical, heteronormative images of what being a gay man is. Lesbians and transgendered persons don't seem to get represented at all :-(

Mardi Gras parade contributes to that stereotype in many ways and is why I personally don't appreciate it. (don't even get me started on that Australia Day rally)

Frankly, for me, I prefer to be a part of the greater community not just pigeon holing myself and expecting everyone else to see it my way. Acceptance works both ways and amongst my predominantly straight friends and co-workers I have a healthy and normal relationship.

[caloanwalker]

Mardi Gras parade contributes to that stereotype in many ways and is why I personally don't appreciate it. (don't even get me started on that Australia Day rally)

Frankly, for me, I prefer to be a part of the greater community not just pigeon holing myself and expecting everyone else to see it my way. Acceptance works both ways and amongst my predominantly straight friends and co-workers I have a healthy and normal relationship.

I see your point, Honest. In a way I think you're right, Mardi Gras does portray a sort of stereotyped version of ourselves as being all colourful all the time, etc.

But on the other hand, I still see the other people's point of view, the GLBT flag bares all the colours of the rainbow for a reason, and that is we're all united and equal and we're together as the outcasts of a "Black or White" society with no space for gray areas.

I for instance hate pink, I don't like girlie things but I respect those who do the same way I expect straight people to respect my own taste. So it's a double-edged knife we're talking about here.

I will say though that I do dislike those who go to Gay Pride Parades just to have free sex on the street, I think that's a bit unnecessary and distasteful, because we're fighting so much to change this promiscuous look and then right in the heart of the Parade you can spot many guys performing sex acts.

To me the Parade is part-political, part-partying.

[Chancethegardener]

Hi Dave,

The point about the commodification of our community is nothing particular to the GLBTQi community at all. Every area of the wider community's lives is pitched as a 'lifestyle', from the car we drive to the toilet paper we buy, all in an attempt to make a buck. The images used in the advertising of products not specifically targeted to gay men are just as full of non-representative stereotypal images. Think fashion and gossip mags, make-up, perfume, and underwear advertising; all contain just as many type-cast images of the people they're targeting their products to, or present an image one 'should' aspire to. I don't think the queer community has been singled out and gone after more rampantly than any other niche market out there. We're bombarded with tawdry stereotypes every day in media and advertising.

As for the Mardi Gras (Honest), I think it a wonderful celebration of diversity in our community. The bits you see on telly are, of course, the usual stereotypical images - at least they're usually the most focused on by the media. But the parade itself contains a great cross-section of our community. I went to Mardi Gras a couple of years ago, under duress, and ended up having the best weekend. I did not participate in the parade, but I did go to the after party. I spoke with dozens of people, a lot of whom weren't gay, and got a great picture of how many straight folk out there are championing us, and how they were amazed at the wide variety of queer people out there. Many remarked that coming to Mardi Gras had opened their eyes to a gay community beyond what they've seen in movies and on telly.

I don't identify with the gay scene at all, but I certainly don't see those who participate in it as pigeon holing themselves. Your comments on the stereotypes of Mardi Gras were perplexing, especially when I looked at your forum avatar! I don't say that to be nasty, but for you to say you don't appreciate the stereotypes pushed by the media at Mardi Gras, then put a photo of you and your Greek God-like chest on this website is a little hypocritical.

[waterrat]

I used to think that the gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender/intersex community was just that: a community. I used to think and wish that because there was a common thing to us all that indeed we should (and could) be "family" get along or respect each other not because of anything other than our common ground...kind of like the greeting "Namaste" - the higher self in me respects the higher self in you (roughly).

I've been shocked into the realisation that nothing could be further from the truth. The gay community is only such when it suits a purpose, kind of like if there was discminination against accountants and they had jack of it and decided to march and raise community awareness...maybe a union is a better metaphor.

I was really disappointed in that realisation as I struggled with self-acceptance for many years and thought well at least there would be a respect in the gay "family". I don't have these issues anymore and when a friend or family member ever says "Oh I know this guy who is gay as well you should meet him" I smile to myself and decline politely...kind of like saying "every accountant should be friends".

Maybe we should change our reference from a glbtiq community or family, and just call ourselves a union (could we register that???) would save time and misunderstanding ;)

Mind you I marched in the grois once...really enjoyed myself probably never do it again, but had fun that time :)

[caloanwalker]

I used to think that the gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender/intersex community was just that: a community. I used to think and wish that because there was a common thing to us all that indeed we should (and could) be "family" get along or respect each other not because of anything other than our common ground...kind of like the greeting "Namaste" - the higher self in me respects the higher self in you (roughly).

I've been shocked into the realisation that nothing could be further from the truth. The gay community is only such when it suits a purpose, kind of like if there was discminination against accountants and they had jack of it and decided to march and raise community awareness...maybe a union is a better metaphor.

I was really disappointed in that realisation as I struggled with self-acceptance for many years and thought well at least there would be a respect in the gay "family". I don't have these issues anymore and when a friend or family member ever says "Oh I know this guy who is gay as well you should meet him" I smile to myself and decline politely...kind of like saying "every accountant should be friends".

Maybe we should change our reference from a glbtiq community or family, and just call ourselves a union (could we register that???) would save time and misunderstanding ;)

Mind you I marched in the grois once...really enjoyed myself probably never do it again, but had fun that time :)

I make your words mine, water. Although they are sad, they're true. I haven't yet lost total faith in our community, far from it, but I've realized it's not really that warm-coloured after all.

[honest]

...Your comments on the stereotypes of Mardi Gras were perplexing, especially when I looked at your forum avatar! I don't say that to be nasty, but for you to say you don't appreciate the stereotypes pushed by the media at Mardi Gras, then put a photo of you and your Greek God-like chest on this website is a little hypocritical.

I'm sorry if I caused offence that wasn't my intention. I just don't see the MG parade as serving any worthwhile purpose, the actual month of MG is a different story because I think it actually contributes a lot.

As for my pic LOL when I go to the beach I only wear boardies or when I'm rehearsing at dance I sometimes don't wear a t-shirt does that make me hypocritical too? :)

[davewb]

Mardi Gras parade contributes to that stereotype in many ways and is why I personally don't appreciate it. (don't even get me started on that Australia Day rally)

Frankly, for me, I prefer to be a part of the greater community not just pigeon holing myself and expecting everyone else to see it my way. Acceptance works both ways and amongst my predominantly straight friends and co-workers I have a healthy and normal relationship.
It saddens me when I read posts like your Honest. That someone so young has yet to find a supportive community in the gay world. But as society changes, we change along with it, so hopefully one day you can feel proud of OUR community.

Not too sure what you mean by stereotypes at mardi gras time though. Stereotypes are an 'ideal' - something not quite real. We are just people living our lives and trying to wade through a society geared towards heterosexuals. If a member of our community wants to wear a frock or have their ass hanging out their leather chaps, what is so wrong with that??? If we were all the same, life (and our community) would be boring!

You mention 'acceptance' in your reply Honest. That is a wonderful word! We not only need to accept each other as we are, but we need to accept ourselves as well.

Please don't feel I'm 'picking' on you in any way, but you do say you are 'honest and outspoken' and your comments and opinions challenge the norm. That's a good thing! Just debating issues here bud, no personal attack.

[davewb]

Hi Dave,

The point about the commodification of our community is nothing particular to the GLBTQi community at all. Every area of the wider community's lives is pitched as a 'lifestyle', from the car we drive to the toilet paper we buy, all in an attempt to make a buck. The images used in the advertising of products not specifically targeted to gay men are just as full of non-representative stereotypal images. Think fashion and gossip mags, make-up, perfume, and underwear advertising; all contain just as many type-cast images of the people they're targeting their products to, or present an image one 'should' aspire to. I don't think the queer community has been singled out and gone after more rampantly than any other niche market out there. We're bombarded with tawdry stereotypes every day in media and advertising.

As for the Mardi Gras (Honest), I think it a wonderful celebration of diversity in our community. The bits you see on telly are, of course, the usual stereotypical images - at least they're usually the most focused on by the media. But the parade itself contains a great cross-section of our community. I went to Mardi Gras a couple of years ago, under duress, and ended up having the best weekend. I did not participate in the parade, but I did go to the after party. I spoke with dozens of people, a lot of whom weren't gay, and got a great picture of how many straight folk out there are championing us, and how they were amazed at the wide variety of queer people out there. Many remarked that coming to Mardi Gras had opened their eyes to a gay community beyond what they've seen in movies and on telly.

I don't identify with the gay scene at all, but I certainly don't see those who participate in it as pigeon holing themselves. Your comments on the stereotypes of Mardi Gras were perplexing, especially when I looked at your forum avatar! I don't say that to be nasty, but for you to say you don't appreciate the stereotypes pushed by the media at Mardi Gras, then put a photo of you and your Greek God-like chest on this website is a little hypocritical.
Yes, I realise that stereotypical images advertising effects all of society LOL. But I'm interested in the effect it has on our community specifically and how it contributes to its perceived decline :-)

[davewb]

I'm sorry if I caused offence that wasn't my intention. I just don't see the MG parade as serving any worthwhile purpose, the actual month of MG is a different story because I think it actually contributes a lot.

As for my pic LOL when I go to the beach I only wear boardies or when I'm rehearsing at dance I sometimes don't wear a t-shirt does that make me hypocritical too? :)
It's obvious that the MG parade has changed considerable over the years. But I believe it does serve a usual purpose:
1. to remind rest of society that we are still here, still subordinated, and still fighting for the right to be accepted for who we are.
2. Self expression - to be in the BGF Glambar with very diverse people from our community was a wonderful experience! It was awesome to see a leather guy and drag queen laughing together and sharing a joke.

[honest]

Point taken davewb. I guess I should say the parade is not for me and if other people get something from it I have no right to poo poo that, so I apologise if I came across that way.

[Christian Taylor]

the mardi gras parade has done so much in the way of gay rights in this country honest, whether you like it or not... sure, it plays on stereotypes, but there's also plenty of irony there.

our community is at a point now where we can find all sorts of ways to represent ourselves. same same is one of these, mardi gras is another... gay families, the push for gay marriage, defence of gay spaces, fetish clothing - all of these are ways of standing our ground.

we are all so different and should allow ourselves to be so.

[dreadcircus]

the mardi gras parade has done so much in the way of gay rights in this country honest, whether you like it or not... sure, it plays on stereotypes, but there's also plenty of irony there.

our community is at a point now where we can find all sorts of ways to represent ourselves. same same is one of these, mardi gras is another... gay families, the push for gay marriage, defence of gay spaces, fetish clothing - all of these are ways of standing our ground.

we are all so different and should allow ourselves to be so.

This is why you rock Christian!!!!

Theres good and bad in most things, black and white oh yeah and a ton of grey. Good publicity, bad publicity its all publicity. One without the other throws things off balance. Oh and we are all different and imperfectly perfect...

Let it Be!!

[ecclipse83]

Mardi Gras parade contributes to that stereotype in many ways and is why I personally don't appreciate it.

i have to agree .... i agree with what it once was but now its just a commercialized event that shows of the 'stereotypes' we are trying to remove.... in fact VIC has pride march nothing like Mardi Gras, WA has the same QLD etc etc ... and its about standing up for your rights to choose who you are

[ecclipse83]

As honest and i are the same age, maybe it is a generational thing but this being said i am a member of a fair few community organizations.


Midsumma Festival - Volunteer Coordinator (possibility of becoming a board member / or patron)
Pride March VIC
ALSO Foundation
Vic. Gay & Lesbain Rights Lobby


and i plan to join (in the next 2 months


PLWHA - VIC (assoicate member)
VICAIDS (Associate Memeber)
Victorian G + L Switchboard (Associate Member)
Trans gender Victoria (supporter membership)


then again maybe i look at things in a different light to alot of people in the community! i have STRONG overwhelming belief in DIVERSITY.

Stand up and be counted for WHO you are NOT what people think you are!

(and yes i know i said i would post but i had to reply to this one)

[davewb]

i have to agree .... i agree with what it once was but now its just a commercialized event that shows of the 'stereotypes' we are trying to remove.... in fact VIC has pride march nothing like Mardi Gras, WA has the same QLD etc etc ... and its about standing up for your rights to choose who you are
I agree that the MG is over commercialised. I was handed a bundle full of promo material from people marching in the parade. But it is a necessary evil....the MG requires lots of $$$$$ and it comes not from the community, but from sponsorship. I still had a ball and believe in the concept of MG though :-)

But both you and Honest talk about 'stereotypes' without actually defining them. What do you guys actually mean??? And why would you want to remove them??? What would removing them acheive???? Is it to appease the straight community and make us more acceptable to middle class Australia???

As I said before,aI stereotype is a representation of an ideal - something that doesn't actually exist. We are complex human beings and far more than a 'stereotype'.

You have said : "i have STRONG overwhelming belief in DIVERSITY.

Stand up and be counted for WHO you are NOT what people think you are!"

If people want to try and conform to a stereotype - whether that be muscle god, gender non conformist or dominant leather man, why would that be wrong???

I just don't see how on one hand you say you believe in diversity yet want to remove the 'stereotypes'. Oiur community should be embaracing of all diversity and not want to remove anyone.

The only stereotypes I see in our community are the images used to represent the ideal gay man in ads - and I assume that represents what the straights think we should be i.e. heteronormative.

[davewb]

the mardi gras parade has done so much in the way of gay rights in this country honest, whether you like it or not... sure, it plays on stereotypes, but there's also plenty of irony there.

our community is at a point now where we can find all sorts of ways to represent ourselves. same same is one of these, mardi gras is another... gay families, the push for gay marriage, defence of gay spaces, fetish clothing - all of these are ways of standing our ground.

we are all so different and should allow ourselves to be so.
Yes, we are all diferent and a very diverse group of people. What should unite us is the fact that our sexuality and gender (in the case of transexuals) subordinates us in society. When you think about it, we really have no place in a heteronormative society and therefore NEED our community. Sure, it's not perfect, but no community is.

I feel quite sad when I hear comments from my fellow queer about removing the 'stereotypes' to appease the straight community.

IMHO, all the laws giving us rights won't give us full social integration and the right to be who we are. Our society is formed around the concept of hegemonic heterosexual masculinity, and we violate that.

Sorry for the rant - studying sociology here and it makes me quite hyper LOL.

But to end this rant - we are a collective that is labelled together due to our sexuality and / or gender performance. We know we are a diverse bunch, but the rest of society tends up lump us into one monolithic group.

Therefore we need a community where we can be free to be who we are - whether drag queen, leather man, gender non conformist etc etc. If one is to accept diversity in our community, then one needs not to judge others.

P.S. Should go to bed now!

[davewb]

Point taken davewb. I guess I should say the parade is not for me and if other people get something from it I have no right to poo poo that, so I apologise if I came across that way.
Cool Honest...but i would like to ask you a few things (if you don't mind! i'm interested in your viewpoint here).

1. What do you define as a stereotype in our community???
2. How would you change the MG parade?
3. Please detail your experience of the Aussie day rally.

(for me, the Aussie day rally was my defining moment of 'coming out' i.e. accepting myself and others for who and what we are. It was a transformative experience for me. I felt a huge sense of community - especially the march down Oxford st!)

I was once very negative about our community and stayed completely away from it. My views were probably more negative than yours. Now I can't get enough of it LOL. And OMFG - i love drag queens!

[davewb]

I see your point, Honest. In a way I think you're right, Mardi Gras does portray a sort of stereotyped version of ourselves as being all colourful all the time, etc.

But on the other hand, I still see the other people's point of view, the GLBT flag bares all the colours of the rainbow for a reason, and that is we're all united and equal and we're together as the outcasts of a "Black or White" society with no space for gray areas.

I for instance hate pink, I don't like girlie things but I respect those who do the same way I expect straight people to respect my own taste. So it's a double-edged knife we're talking about here.

I will say though that I do dislike those who go to Gay Pride Parades just to have free sex on the street, I think that's a bit unnecessary and distasteful, because we're fighting so much to change this promiscuous look and then right in the heart of the Parade you can spot many guys performing sex acts.

To me the Parade is part-political, part-partying.
"will say though that I do dislike those who go to Gay Pride Parades just to have free sex on the street, I think that's a bit unnecessary and distasteful, because we're fighting so much to change this promiscuous look and then right in the heart of the Parade you can spot many guys performing sex acts."

oooohhh, does this happen in our MG parade??? The amount of police LOL I don't think so! I wouldn't mind seeing sex on the street during MG - sex is a healthy important part of all our lives :-)

[ecclipse83]

I agree that the MG is over commercialised. I was handed a bundle full of promo material from people marching in the parade. But it is a necessary evil....the MG requires lots of $$$$$ and it comes not from the community, but from sponsorship. I still had a ball and believe in the concept of MG though :-)

In Melbourne it is a 21 day festival of Queer Culture and you get no commercial material in your hand at either of the three major events and if an organisation is found to be distributing such material they are removed from the event location.

Both PrideMarch and Midsumma rely heavily on community support, minimal govt arts funding & minute sponsorship agreement (Thanx SS) both have in access of 100 volunteers and MQFF 150 volunteers, the rest floods in from the GBLTi community and organisations across VIC.

As I said before,aI stereotype is a representation of an ideal - something that doesn't actually exist. We are complex human beings and far more than a 'stereotype'.


Twinks
Divas
Dykes (on their bikes)
Queens
etcrecently i was pigeon holed as a 'Twinky Otter' which was weird, i am who i am was my response please do not sterotype me , i have been to one mardi gras, and have seen hours of footage, all i see is Drag, Leather, Queen, Dykes and twinks... maybe i am expressing incorrectly here.



If people want to try and conform to a stereotype - whether that be muscle god, gender non conformist or dominant leather man, why would that be wrong???

Its not they are standing up to the world and saying fuck you this is who i am and i am fucking proud of it, my concern always lays with media broadcasts and what footage they show, we know within our community who we are and what we define ourself as.

Recently, i stated to a work colleague i was gay .... and she responded with - you can be you dont at like a girl and you don't have enough muscle ... i stood there completely astonished .... then she went on about transsexuals and it ended up being a 3 hour debate on stereotype and gender V's sexuality.


I just don't see how on one hand you say you believe in diversity yet want to remove the 'stereotypes'. Oiur community should be embaracing of all diversity and not want to remove anyone.

i think we see stereotypes as two completely different levels, a sterotype is defined as

A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
One that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type.
Printing. A metal printing plate cast from a matrix molded from a raised printing surface, such as type. tr.v., -typed, -typ·ing, -types.
To make a stereotype of.
To characterize by a stereotype: “Elderly Americans are the neglected sector of the fashion industry, stereotyped by blue hair and polyester pantsuits” (American Demographics).
To give a fixed, unvarying form to.
To print from a stereotype.
this is what i refer to when talking about stereotypes .... let people who they want to be, not what the conservative people want them to be or to pigeon hole them to be.... accept all for who they are!


I think i possibly haven't explained myself greatly here and its more of an indepth F2F convo but , i think you get my point!

[davewb]

Ecclipse83 said:

"Twinks
Divas
Dykes (on their bikes)
Queens
etc"


Interesting viewpoint Bradley. Our definitions of 'stereotype' basically agree though :-) Psychologists define it as a set of assumptions one gives to a group of people perceived to the 'same' e.g. all Muslims are terrorists, all gays are feminine etc etc. Those assumptions tend to based on prejudices.

Though I believe the 'stereotypes' you mention come from within our own community. I would question the validity that they are indeed 'stereotypes' though. Our whole social structure is organised into 'groups' - family, work, friends, clubs etc etc. Our queer (or whatever term people want to use!) community, as mentioned many many times here, is very diverse. Are the stereotypes you mentioned actually stereotypes or 'groups' that people can interact in and feel comfortable??

Take dykes on bikes as an example. They exhibit a high degree of gender non conformity. Perhaps the gals involved don't desire to ascribe to the ideal of feminitiy and therefore that group is formed as a place where like minded lesbians can interact and feel comfortable???

Like it or not, our identity is formed (to varying degrees) by our membership to various groups. Sure,a ll of us are not the same and perhaps those stereotypes/groups are a way of uniting like minded people in our community.

As for media representation - forget it! The media represents all sections of society as a 'stereotype' and we are no different there. Poor Muslims have had a hard time of since 9/11!

If people are happy to be a 'dyke on bike', 'queen', 'twink' etc etc etc and want to publicity display that during a parade, what is so wrong with that??

As we continue to be subordinated by the rest of society, we really need to focus on providing a safe haven for all of us to be who we are.....

P.S. Loving this discussiion sweetie! (I'm deliberately being 'queenie' LOL)

[davewb]

This is why you rock Christian!!!!

Theres good and bad in most things, black and white oh yeah and a ton of grey. Good publicity, bad publicity its all publicity. One without the other throws things off balance. Oh and we are all different and imperfectly perfect...

Let it Be!!
Do you find the MG parade and festival provide adequate representation of the transgendered community Jade??? Interested to hear your thoughts....

[GenesisInVain]

ecclipse83 said:

"Recently, i stated to a work colleague i was gay .... and she responded with - you can be you dont at like a girl and you don't have enough muscle ... i stood there completely astonished .... then she went on about transsexuals and it ended up being a 3 hour debate on stereotype and gender V's sexuality."

I've had similar experiences on both sides of the scale. I've had people say it was obvious and others have also said that I don't act girly enough and that I don't wear enough pink.

As with stereotypes, I agree with Dave. If this is how certain members of our community are and live, let them be. As the cliche goes. United we stand, divided we fall. We shouldn't outcast members from our community. We have got to stick together. How are we going to prove to the heteronormative community that 'we're as stable as them' if we cast out our own. Blood is thicker than lycra. And what I mean by that is we all share something common. We are Family.

And we can't let the community die or let it go. What happens to the young people. I talk to queer people younger than me and they've said that the best time they've ever experienced our community was during Mardi Gras. We have to fight for our own community. For the sake of younger queer generations. Just as our foremothers and fathers did, we have to make the future for young queer people better. We can't give up or lose hope because straight people still see us as stereotypes such as gender non confromists, leather men or drag queens. Or religious and conservative institutions damn us. We have to break the glass ceiling!

We can do this through protest, support groups, literature, the arts or websites like SS. But what we must not do is lose hope or give up on ourselves.

[dreadcircus]

Do you find the MG parade and festival provide adequate representation of the transgendered community Jade??? Interested to hear your thoughts....

Ok so I read this first thing this morning and sat on it till I got to work. Firstly I want to stress for myself being transgender doesn't define my everyday life. I'm far more complex than a singular word and before anything else I'm human. When I came out to everybody as a transgender woman, the gay community was very foreign to me but I felt as though this was the only place I could align myself. Sadly for the longest time I did not feel welcome in this community, even today many trans people are disillusioned with the GLBT community feeling segregated and unincluded.

For many years I have been involved in the transgender community and can honestly say it's a mess. Transgender is such a broad umbrella, heavily shaded with 90% grey area. Within the transgender community are crossdressers, transsexuals, transvestites, drag queens/kings, queers and intersexed people. All of these are very different from the next but all have a common theme of some kind of gender variance. Sadly as a community I have found over the years it to be devisive, destructive and totally unsupportive for my needs. Because the TG community is so broad it is virtually impossible to form any cohesion to actually make a solid group to fight for any issues regarding health, safety and basic equal rights. You just have to look at something like Transgender Day of Remembrance Nov 20th every year to see just how vulnerable the TG community is. Last year in Sydney only 20 people turned up to the TDOR forums created by a few of us and some political leaders. So not only are we marginalized by society but even on the day we remember the fallen each year whilst celebrating our diversity as trans people nobody shows up to support us. It's not right i tells you!

Over the past 2 years I have been performing music in a rock band which heavily promotes us as being a mix of transgender and lesbian musicians. This has been a struggle to get shows as we are a rock band trying to perform in a community dominated by clubs and dance music but we have broken through to a degree to a mainly lesbian audience. Many years ago it seems there was tension between lesbians and trans people due to a strong feminist movement but over the years these walls seem to be falling. Hopefully our band has played a small role in this.

Australia wide our GLBT festivals are becoming more inclusive. 5 years ago I doubt whether my band would have gotten a show @ Mardi Gras whereas this year we were featured in the festival guide and even showcased at Fair Day. Adelaide (Feast) and Melbourne's (Midsumma) festivals have been promoting all inclusiveness for a while now and Mardi Gras is still catching up I believe. Both Midsumma and FEAST have booked us 2 years running which has been awesome and I've felt very included in their festivals.

At the end of the day all of the GLBT festivals in Australia are exactly that.. A Festival to have a great time expressing ourselves and making some huge statements politically but these festivals do not define my life. My actions away from festivals define me much more.

This year we played MG shows with lesbian artists, I did a drag king show and even my own one woman cabaret show. On the day of the parade I rode with the Dykes on Bikes and went to many gay male events also, as taking in the festival as a whole is awesome. At present Mardi Gras still does not represent the TG community enough but seems to be on the right path like Adelaide and Melbourne. Even this years WA Pride has taken on the all inclusive diversity angle making a TG person king/queen of the festival so the broadening of the community spirit in festivals seems to be happening all over Oz. This trend is happening on a world scale also.

I've said this many times, good things take time and things ARE changing as we all grow, learn and accept ourselves. It's quite hard to see things from the outside when you are involved and change can be a slow journey. As for me I see injustice everywhere, not only our community. I have this little dream that our GLBT community will one day broaden so wide that we are far more inclusive than just sexual preference and gender. When there are people being denied rights world over on their race, sexuality, gender, social status, wealth and mental illness you would hope one day all of these minorities could band together and make some massive human rights changes. I don't want to have to align with a minority group for the rest of my life and believe things will continue to change no matter how slow for the better.

I'm now looking forward to heading to WA to perform @ Pride as possibly the first transgender artist ever to grace their festival. I love the festivals every year and want to continue to make up a small piece of each one. What I'd really love to see though is some people turn up to Transgender Day of Remembrance which again I'm putting on an event in Sydney this Nov 20th. I'd love to see gay, lesbian and bisexual people come along and support the T in the Community as we are still being murdered, bashed and even marginalized by many in the broader GLBT community because we are not understood. Being transgender is fucking tough believe me, some people still believe we are on a par with Pedophiles which sickens me.

I say let your hair down, enjoy the festivals and support each other because if we don't enjoy ourselves, laugh, express and accept each other then the fight is lost. We need balance in our fight and don't always need to be serious. I really love being involved in the GLBT community and hope to see us continue to grow and develop into mainstream society.

[honest]

Cool Honest...but i would like to ask you a few things (if you don't mind! i'm interested in your viewpoint here).

1. What do you define as a stereotype in our community???
2. How would you change the MG parade?
3. Please detail your experience of the Aussie day rally.


Lordy I got into reading everyone else's comments after this one I lost track :)

Well davewb let me try to answer those three points.

{Disclaimer}:-This is just my opinion and I mean no harm or ill feelings towards anyone or any group in particular. If my comments/opinion cause anyone any undue stress that is not my intention and I apologise in advance.

1. I define stereotypes as very effeminate, loud boys wearing wings, short shorts, makeup or riding penis' In the parade it seems they are way over the top (probably more so than usual). I believe they are simply living up to a stereotype. I understand the parade gives them reason to let their hair down and party, but I think it gives a false impression to the heterosexual public about what "gay" actually is.

2. I would like to see MG remain as it is, but the parade itself is out of touch with today's movement. Here we are seeking equal rights and it would be nice if the parade returned as a protest march rather than a "parade" no floats, no fancy costumes. Really drive the message home to Australia rather than be a source of entertainment.

3. The Rally, well the original organiser is a good friend of mine. I think the people who attended (I went) were really inspired and strengthened by it but that quickly blew away for most. It was intended to be a rally of everyday people without the self marketing of certain organisations and politicians. Originally the mainstream press were to attend including 2Day FM who were going to broadcast from there, but they were turned away at the last minute by the new organisers. It became a political stage rather than a public stance for equality which was to be exposed to the most of Australia (hence the day it was chosen).

[ecclipse83]

(My darling Jade ... thesis writing could be a strong point of yours :P)

to the rest now that i haven't slept for some days i will formulate a response shortly

[davewb]

Ok so I read this first thing this morning and sat on it till I got to work. Firstly I want to stress for myself being transgender doesn't define my everyday life. I'm far more complex than a singular word and before anything else I'm human. When I came out to everybody as a transgender woman, the gay community was very foreign to me but I felt as though this was the only place I could align myself. Sadly for the longest time I did not feel welcome in this community, even today many trans people are disillusioned with the GLBT community feeling segregated and unincluded.

For many years I have been involved in the transgender community and can honestly say it's a mess. Transgender is such a broad umbrella, heavily shaded with 90% grey area. Within the transgender community are crossdressers, transsexuals, transvestites, drag queens/kings, queers and intersexed people. All of these are very different from the next but all have a common theme of some kind of gender variance. Sadly as a community I have found over the years it to be devisive, destructive and totally unsupportive for my needs. Because the TG community is so broad it is virtually impossible to form any cohesion to actually make a solid group to fight for any issues regarding health, safety and basic equal rights. You just have to look at something like Transgender Day of Remembrance Nov 20th every year to see just how vulnerable the TG community is. Last year in Sydney only 20 people turned up to the TDOR forums created by a few of us and some political leaders. So not only are we marginalized by society but even on the day we remember the fallen each year whilst celebrating our diversity as trans people nobody shows up to support us. It's not right i tells you!

Over the past 2 years I have been performing music in a rock band which heavily promotes us as being a mix of transgender and lesbian musicians. This has been a struggle to get shows as we are a rock band trying to perform in a community dominated by clubs and dance music but we have broken through to a degree to a mainly lesbian audience. Many years ago it seems there was tension between lesbians and trans people due to a strong feminist movement but over the years these walls seem to be falling. Hopefully our band has played a small role in this.

Australia wide our GLBT festivals are becoming more inclusive. 5 years ago I doubt whether my band would have gotten a show @ Mardi Gras whereas this year we were featured in the festival guide and even showcased at Fair Day. Adelaide (Feast) and Melbourne's (Midsumma) festivals have been promoting all inclusiveness for a while now and Mardi Gras is still catching up I believe. Both Midsumma and FEAST have booked us 2 years running which has been awesome and I've felt very included in their festivals.

At the end of the day all of the GLBT festivals in Australia are exactly that.. A Festival to have a great time expressing ourselves and making some huge statements politically but these festivals do not define my life. My actions away from festivals define me much more.

This year we played MG shows with lesbian artists, I did a drag king show and even my own one woman cabaret show. On the day of the parade I rode with the Dykes on Bikes and went to many gay male events also, as taking in the festival as a whole is awesome. At present Mardi Gras still does not represent the TG community enough but seems to be on the right path like Adelaide and Melbourne. Even this years WA Pride has taken on the all inclusive diversity angle making a TG person king/queen of the festival so the broadening of the community spirit in festivals seems to be happening all over Oz. This trend is happening on a world scale also.

I've said this many times, good things take time and things ARE changing as we all grow, learn and accept ourselves. It's quite hard to see things from the outside when you are involved and change can be a slow journey. As for me I see injustice everywhere, not only our community. I have this little dream that our GLBT community will one day broaden so wide that we are far more inclusive than just sexual preference and gender. When there are people being denied rights world over on their race, sexuality, gender, social status, wealth and mental illness you would hope one day all of these minorities could band together and make some massive human rights changes. I don't want to have to align with a minority group for the rest of my life and believe things will continue to change no matter how slow for the better.

I'm now looking forward to heading to WA to perform @ Pride as possibly the first transgender artist ever to grace their festival. I love the festivals every year and want to continue to make up a small piece of each one. What I'd really love to see though is some people turn up to Transgender Day of Remembrance which again I'm putting on an event in Sydney this Nov 20th. I'd love to see gay, lesbian and bisexual people come along and support the T in the Community as we are still being murdered, bashed and even marginalized by many in the broader GLBT community because we are not understood. Being transgender is fucking tough believe me, some people still believe we are on a par with Pedophiles which sickens me.

I say let your hair down, enjoy the festivals and support each other because if we don't enjoy ourselves, laugh, express and accept each other then the fight is lost. We need balance in our fight and don't always need to be serious. I really love being involved in the GLBT community and hope to see us continue to grow and develop into mainstream society.
Thanks for that response Jade....gives me greater insight into transgenderism. Fabulous!

[davewb]

Lordy I got into reading everyone else's comments after this one I lost track :)

Well davewb let me try to answer those three points.

{Disclaimer}:-This is just my opinion and I mean no harm or ill feelings towards anyone or any group in particular. If my comments/opinion cause anyone any undue stress that is not my intention and I apologise in advance.

1. I define stereotypes as very effeminate, loud boys wearing wings, short shorts, makeup or riding penis' In the parade it seems they are way over the top (probably more so than usual). I believe they are simply living up to a stereotype. I understand the parade gives them reason to let their hair down and party, but I think it gives a false impression to the heterosexual public about what "gay" actually is.

2. I would like to see MG remain as it is, but the parade itself is out of touch with today's movement. Here we are seeking equal rights and it would be nice if the parade returned as a protest march rather than a "parade" no floats, no fancy costumes. Really drive the message home to Australia rather than be a source of entertainment.

3. The Rally, well the original organiser is a good friend of mine. I think the people who attended (I went) were really inspired and strengthened by it but that quickly blew away for most. It was intended to be a rally of everyday people without the self marketing of certain organisations and politicians. Originally the mainstream press were to attend including 2Day FM who were going to broadcast from there, but they were turned away at the last minute by the new organisers. It became a political stage rather than a public stance for equality which was to be exposed to the most of Australia (hence the day it was chosen).
Interesting viewpoints Honest. I don't agree LOL, but then the world would be boring if we all thought the same. I am going to 'challenge' you on a few points you raised, but it is to add to the debate - all of our points are valid (remember diversity in our community!).

1. So the point concerning 'stereotypes' comes from what the heterosexual community think of us??? Whatever we do, we will always violate the dominant force of heterosexual masculinity in our society and therefore always be considered something 'less' (certainly in the foreseeable future).. Personally I love the 'out there' people in our community, but to each their own :-)

2. Well yes, MG is somewhat of a 'show' but it is also about fighting for equality and making ourselves visible. We could have an additional march that involves walking the streets with banners etc and involves no commercialisation (the march down Oxford St at the Aussie day rally in a good example to refer to here).


3. Well yes, the rally did have political grandstanding etc, but even though it is always for their ultimate benefit, it's always good to have people in power on our side. I knew nothing about the organisation problems etc but IMHO we as a community no longer have the political force we once had thus the rally would barely have rated a mention in the mainstream media.

Thanks for your replies Honest. We are obviously both very different !!!

[honest]

Interesting viewpoints Honest. I don't agree LOL, but then the world would be boring if we all thought the same. I am going to 'challenge' you on a few points you raised, but it is to add to the debate - all of our points are valid (remember diversity in our community!).

1. So the point concerning 'stereotypes' comes from what the heterosexual community think of us??? Whatever we do, we will always violate the dominant force of heterosexual masculinity in our society and therefore always be considered something 'less' (certainly in the foreseeable future).. Personally I love the 'out there' people in our community, but to each their own :-)

2. Well yes, MG is somewhat of a 'show' but it is also about fighting for equality and making ourselves visible. We could have an additional march that involves walking the streets with banners etc and involves no commercialisation (the march down Oxford St at the Aussie day rally in a good example to refer to here).


3. Well yes, the rally did have political grandstanding etc, but even though it is always for their ultimate benefit, it's always good to have people in power on our side. I knew nothing about the organisation problems etc but IMHO we as a community no longer have the political force we once had thus the rally would barely have rated a mention in the mainstream media.

Thanks for your replies Honest. We are obviously both very different !!!

Okay :)

1. Yes I agree and I am speaking about the heterosexual viewpoint (sorry I should have been more specific). I think the element that is in the parade isn't a true representation of all of us and can be misleading. But that is predominantly why straight people go to see it I suppose.

2. What can I say, but yes :)

3. Originally, as I mentioned, the mainstream press was already arranged by the original organiser to attend. 2DayFM was going to be there and broadcast live from the vigil. SMH was sending a photographer and journo and ABC radio actually did an on the air interview with the original organiser as the vigil was being held. But both 2DayFM and SMH were contacted by the new organiser and turned away so it never happened. It's a shame because by exposing such a significant event to the general Australian public could have had a stronger effect than just getting Clover Moore and a couple of other people up on stage to say the same thing they always say to a crowd of people who have heard it all before and with only the local gay press reporting it to the same people who read it all before.

[Chancethegardener]

Okay :)

1. Yes I agree and I am speaking about the heterosexual viewpoint (sorry I should have been more specific). I think the element that is in the parade isn't a true representation of all of us and can be misleading. But that is predominantly why straight people go to see it I suppose.



This is a really good point, Honest.

You could look at Mardi Gras like a theatre production. Not always true to life as we live it in modernity. Not always an accurate representation of the diversity in a minority. Not always JUST the story being set out in the dialogue. Reading between the lines is important!

Inclusiveness, love, diversity, respect; if it takes a bit of pallid showiness to get people to witness something that emdobies these ideals, I reckon it's worth it!

[Bren]

It was asserted earlier in this thread that "the mainstream press [in particular 2Day FM and SMH] were turned away at the last minute [from the Australia Day'08 vigil against violence] by the [...] organisers."

For the public record and to the best of my knowledge as one of the organising volunteers on the day, that was not the case. :)

Being a public gathering in a public space, I don't see how any ordinary person would even have the capacity or lawful authority, let alone audacity, to exclude the media. Just like no one ordinary person ever had the singular capacity or authority to "cancel" the gathering.

[davewb]

It was asserted earlier in this thread that "the mainstream press [in particular 2Day FM and SMH] were turned away at the last minute [from the Australia Day'08 vigil against violence] by the [...] organisers."

For the public record and to the best of my knowledge as one of the organising volunteers on the day, that was not the case. :)

Being a public gathering in a public space, I don't see how any ordinary person would even have the capacity or lawful authority, let alone audacity, to exclude the media. Just like no one ordinary person ever had the singular capacity or authority to "cancel" the gathering.
Whoever had the idea of an inpromptu march down Oxford St deserves an award - amazing!

[honest]

Whoever had the idea of an inpromptu march down Oxford St deserves an award - amazing!

Agreed, at least that idea by the original organiser was maintained.

Just to confirm, yes both 2DayFM and SMH were turned away by the new organiser because they didn't think they had any relevance being there. But it's all water under the bridge now and we should all concentrate on supporting each other. I think a lot of people were inspired by the vigil.


{Disclaimer}:-This is just my opinion and I mean no harm or ill feelings towards anyone or any group in particular. If my comments/opinion cause anyone any undue stress that is not my intention and I apologise in advance.

[honest]

So based on that what was the plausible reason for turning away 2DayFM??

The media wasn't "shut out" they were contacted by the new organiser and told it wasn't necessary for them to be there. I think it would have been odd for Ben to go to so much trouble to have them there and then ask them not to be there.

Anyway that's old news so let's just move on now.

[waterrat]

I think one of my fave bad things and is it just because we are polar opposites?

How it seems that there is an 'us and them' between gays and lesbians.

Seems so many lesbians are "gayphobic" and so many gays are "lesbiphobic" I've never been able to work it out. I've got some great lesbian friends, but some are just so cold...so cold

eg...so many times I heard 'the lesbians are to blame' when a mardi gras a few years ago didn't do very well (it was about 5-10 years ago now so wasn't recently) it just sh|ts me when we're meant "to be in this together?"

[davewb]

I think one of my fave bad things and is it just because we are polar opposites?

How it seems that there is an 'us and them' between gays and lesbians.

Seems so many lesbians are "gayphobic" and so many gays are "lesbiphobic" I've never been able to work it out. I've got some great lesbian friends, but some are just so cold...so cold

eg...so many times I heard 'the lesbians are to blame' when a mardi gras a few years ago didn't do very well (it was about 5-10 years ago now so wasn't recently) it just sh|ts me when we're meant "to be in this together?"
I very valid point! So many gay men I've met have very negative attitudes towards lesbians. Perhaps it goes to a deeper level and signifies gender relations and masculinity continuing to dominant?

When I meet lesbians at venues etc and I always tell them 'I love lesbians' - helps break the ice :-) Depending on how many wines I've had LOL, I often give them my speech on lesbians being the strength and backbone of our community and without them we would implode - how they provide a normative influence to us gay men who, when on our own in groups, tend to be exclusionary and judgemental towards each other.

Celebrate diversity !

[davewb]

That was the brilliant idea of the MCees Steph Sands & Maxi Shields. I thought they did a brilliant job of the whole thing :)

But yeh, campaigns of malicious falsehood are one of the deep-seeded bad things about (some very small segments of) our GLBTQI community. It is a shame, because people that do that display intellect but they do not seem to apply it wisely or constructively. Some of the revisionist flame wars about events past on here, SSOnet and SxNews are perfect examples (in spite of all warnings by moderators even).

Another case in point: contrary to continued supposition recently, I reiterate that, to my knowledge, neither I nor any other member of the organising team "turned away" the Sydney Morning Herald or 2DayFM from the Australia Day'08 vigil (which was a public gathering in a public space, freely accessible to media and public alike, requiring permission from absolutely no-one to be there if they so chose). Such fanciful claims are merely all tip & no iceberg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQdVJL2CO9o).

In case anyone still claims otherwise, then they should have no trouble naming the "turned away" reporters and getting them to confirm it publically (because the media doesn't take kindly to being shut out, given various High Court findings over the years that there is an implicit freedom of political communications, aka the press, in this country).

As I recall, the only person (if anyone) with a plausible motivation to attempt to turn away the SMH was original organiser Ben Veenkamp (who was known to be upset by an 'inflammatory' SMH article (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/01/18/1200620213002.html) the week prior which had been partly (http://www.samesame.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=18946&postcount=1) attributed (http://www.samesame.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=18996&postcount=1) as one of the reasons he tried to cancel the vigil (http://www.samesame.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=18934&postcount=1)).
I'm loving your posts Bren - you are a very clever man :-) It will be interesting to see how our Tim handles this (but doesn't appear to be any community guidelines violated though).

Seriously though.....I enjoyed the rally, it was a transformative experience for me. Yes, there was political grandstanding, but feelings of community within the crowd transceding Clover Moore's long speech - we were all connected by a concern for our well being on the streets - to stand up and be counted!

Who cares whether the media were there??? I would assume it would have been biased reporting anyway (as most news is these days). My opinion concerning the non attendance of media is :

1. Stayed away because there was no interest. It was Australia Day, with many events for them to cover. Celebrating 'nationalism' was far more important for them than covering our rally.

2. We don't seem to have the poitical force we once had. One obviously reason may be the lack of a unified voice. Seems those people organising these events cannot agree about what happened, never mind actually organising one!

[genkij]

I actually think the good & bad thing about the community is actually the same thing .... BITCHINESS - I can love it & I can loath it.

There is a time and a place for all behaviors .....

The ability to be able to laugh @ oneself is very important for any humans i feel.

I really do not like people who become militant over who or what they are. In my experience is that a lot of people have way too amny hang ups about themselves - INC things that they cant change. I love being gay & am proud of it. I know there are a lot of people out there that have not had it as easy as myself. & really enjoy helping those effected like this feel more comfortable with themselves.

so ....err... yeah .... Bitchness can be fantastic & can be very upsetting.... mother always said " If you ain't Nuffin nice to say don't say anything at all " WELL Mother My version is more like " If you have not got anything nice to say (NOW) discuss it with you friends later and make sure you don't get caught!"

NOYICE ....

[waterrat]

This might just be a personal thing...but i think it is more than a reflection of the rest of the community. Just seems to me that gay guys can't have a good time unless they are absolutely shattered on something...I don't take anything at all (well I do now cause I'm on dexamphet but not recreationally lol) and it just seems everyone who is out is pinging off their dial. It is everyone's choice I understand that..but jeez

[genkij]

Let's get back to the FUNKY (You know what come before Party B ?? ) PART TAY!!

[genkij]

Oh Oh OH !! Mis mis mis mmiiiisss - I have a question.

NOW just before I start ..... My Opinion has changed here BUT .....

I used to have quite an issue with the whole "Gay & Lesbian" Community Tag...
I used to think that Lesbians (are we still allowed to used that term for gay women??) did not have much in common with me as a gay man ...Now now .. let me explain... A lot of gay guys have lots of female friends and really enjoy the company of women BUT I used to find that the girls quite often were rather misandristic (the opposite of misogynistic - I looked it up - easy to remember as a lady i work with hates her ex-husband & her name IS Sandra - so Mis-Sandra-Nistic was a no brainer). I have now found a lot of lesbians I have met recently are more happy to be around gay guys but not really into straight guys as friends. LOOK I might have it very wrong but it is an observation that I have made and so used to think that we were quite different - Of course we have the whole Coming out thing in common.....

OK ... I am ready for a barrage of abuse.....

[Tim D]

A number of personal posts have been removed from this thread because they should not be discussed in a public forum.

[Melbourne Lesbian]

I was really disappointed in that realisation as I struggled with self-acceptance for many years and thought well at least there would be a respect in the gay "family". I don't have these issues anymore and when a friend or family member ever says "Oh I know this guy who is gay as well you should meet him" I smile to myself and decline politely...kind of like saying "every accountant should be friends".


I totally agree with most of what you've said Waterrat. It is an unfortunate reality that the gay and lesbian community is really fucked up most of the time (excuse the language). From what i've seen, most of the party scene seems to be run by one or two greedy promoters who don't have our best interests at heart. I am not sure about all the other community stuff such as Midsumma and the Gay and Lesbian Film Festival, but it seems our entire community is run by alcohol and drugs. It would be great to be able to meet like-minded people, in a safe atmosphere ,and not be controlled by these profiteers.

Really, all communities look good from the outside, but once you step in, you see the plethora of problems that plague most communities.

What i'd really like is a community of nice people, regardless of sexuality...

[Melbourne Lesbian]

This might just be a personal thing...but i think it is more than a reflection of the rest of the community. Just seems to me that gay guys can't have a good time unless they are absolutely shattered on something...I don't take anything at all (well I do now cause I'm on dexamphet but not recreationally lol) and it just seems everyone who is out is pinging off their dial. It is everyone's choice I understand that..but jeez

What you've just described is the result of a whole lot of insecurity. It really is sad.

[Bren]

A number of personal posts have been removed from this thread because they should not be discussed in a public forum.

Thanks Tim :)

[marly]

I totally agree with most of what you've said Waterrat. It is an unfortunate reality that the gay and lesbian community is really fucked up most of the time (excuse the language). From what i've seen, most of the party scene seems to be run by one or two greedy promoters who don't have our best interests at heart. I am not sure about all the other community stuff such as Midsumma and the Gay and Lesbian Film Festival, but it seems our entire community is run by alcohol and drugs. It would be great to be able to meet like-minded people, in a safe atmosphere ,and not be controlled by these profiteers.

Really, all communities look good from the outside, but once you step in, you see the plethora of problems that plague most communities.

What i'd really like is a community of nice people, regardless of sexuality...

The problem isnt exclusively gay though. The hetero scene is rife with drug/alcohol abuse. Unfortunately dance music and clubbing is synonymous with feel good drugs. People feel a need to have them so as to be able to dance for 8 hours. People dont seem to be able to have a dance for a couple/few hours and then go home and sleep, which would be the healthier thing to do. They prefer to have a synthetically induced peak experience that lasts for hours and hours.
Its very difficult to break out of the "dance music" scene because its a lifestyle/cultural thing. It permeates through so many aspects of ones life including music, fashion, media, social gatherings etc etc. and these things then become triggers.
I think as you get older ,if you can survive ,the scene and drugs become less attractive and you realise how empty and dissatisfying it really is.

[waterrat]

I guess having ADHD is a good thing then....I get bored then go somewhere else after a few hours lol

I completely concur that the issue isn't just being gay...I wonder if anyone (ACON I'm looking in your direction) has done a study to compare the drug use of gay V straight...I wonder how it would look. I reckon 18-25 would look almost the same, 26-35 would be about 90% the same and as the ages get older the gay usage would rise against the straight, cause really...most older straight guys aren't into GHB or E's the way gays are (I'm talking 40+ here) and what about our sisters? Are the lesbian figures as high as gay men? How does this affect our community....It would seem that our usage of Ice is lower than the straight community (otherwise there'd be soo many angry/violent guys around)

Maybe there is a thesis in this for someone? Sorry if not a lot of this makes sense...I'm off my face on lemsip at the moment with this cold god bless it! :P

And thankyou Archangel Timothy...it was a bit of a downer in this thread for a while

[Melbourne Lesbian]

I reckon 18-25 would look almost the same, 26-35 would be about 90% the same and as the ages get older the gay usage would rise against the straight, cause really...most older straight guys aren't into GHB or E's the way gays are (I'm talking 40+ here) and what about our sisters? Are the lesbian figures as high as gay men? How does this affect our community....It would seem that our usage of Ice is lower than the straight community (otherwise there'd be soo many angry/violent guys around)

Maybe there is a thesis in this for someone? Sorry if not a lot of this makes sense...I'm off my face on lemsip at the moment with this cold god bless it! :P


Waterat, i think you're right. Drug and alcohol abuse is definately higher amongst the gay population in the older age groups. You don't really see many people 35+ go out regularly in the straight scene.

I'm not sure about drug use in the lesbian scene. I think alcohol and marijuana is the more popular choice there. I do know that some girls take harder stuff when they go out, but as a rule, lesbians tend to go out less than gay men, so i would assume that their overall consumption is a lot less.

Marly, you're right about it being disatisfying. Btw, your avatar is spoooooooky!

[waterrat]

It kinda seems that way ML. It's a shame, I dealt with a lot of long term addicts in my old job, and damn! they are in a scary place - It just kinda breaks my heart that so many people may fall down into that deep dark place and not know where they were headed until they get there. Ice is about the worst...the stuff people do on it....scary

[marly]

It would seem that our usage of Ice is lower than the straight community (otherwise there'd be soo many angry/violent guys around)



Well I definitely noticed the difference over the years in the level of aggression on the gay scene. Its not physical aggression but more rudeness and anti social behaviour.
The 80's were a very friendly happy era as far as the scene, music and drugs went as E was the predominant drug of choice but as Ice took over the vibe changed and it became very dark. Many people moved away from the scene completely because they just couldnt tolerate it any longer including myself.

[marly]

Waterat, i think you're right. Drug and alcohol abuse is definately higher amongst the gay population in the older age groups. You don't really see many people 35+ go out regularly in the straight scene.

I'm not sure about drug use in the lesbian scene. I think alcohol and marijuana is the more popular choice there. I do know that some girls take harder stuff when they go out, but as a rule, lesbians tend to go out less than gay men, so i would assume that their overall consumption is a lot less.

Marly, you're right about it being disatisfying. Btw, your avatar is spoooooooky!



Most straights end up having kids I guess so they settle down where as if youre gay you dont necessarily have anything like that forcing you to grow up.
Im over 35 and gay and I couldnt think of anything worse than going out on the scene regularly, i just couldnt be bothered lol. It takes way too much time and energy which Id rather spend on something else these days. I do still go out but maybe only 2-3 times a year at the most. Perhaps Im in the minority.

[waterrat]

Would this and a feeling of the "scene" no longer having relevance be the reason for gay clubs/etc attendance dropping? As usual I'm happy to be corrected but I thought I saw/read/heard about dropping numbers at gay clubs esp. in Sydney...Brissy is fairly limited for choice so I don't know about numbers dropping greatly there...anyway

I've never really been a part of the scene anywhere so I can't say I've noticed rises/falls/etc. Rude gays? surely you jest...bitchy queens are just a figment of the imagination aren't they Marly? ;)

[marly]

Would this and a feeling of the "scene" no longer having relevance be the reason for gay clubs/etc attendance dropping? As usual I'm happy to be corrected but I thought I saw/read/heard about dropping numbers at gay clubs esp. in Sydney...Brissy is fairly limited for choice so I don't know about numbers dropping greatly there...anyway

I've never really been a part of the scene anywhere so I can't say I've noticed rises/falls/etc. Rude gays? surely you jest...bitchy queens are just a figment of the imagination aren't they Marly? ;)

The gay club scene in sydney in places such as oxford st has gradually been taken over by straight punters over the last 15 years. The gay clubs/pubs have closed one by one and reopened as straight clubs. Unfortunately its not commercially viable for clubs to be gay only and its also impossible to enforce. Many people say the gay crowd is fickle but I believe that as the number of straight punters increase in a venue the gay crowd feels alienated and stops going there and/or moves on somewhere else.
I think gay men have probably felt despondent and powerless to do anything about it. But on the positive side as this has been happening there have been more and more parties starting and we are now spoilt for choice as far as parties go. The long weekend that has just passed is a good example of this. I've always preferred parties to clubs. They are always a much better vibe. I think the scene like everything is just evolving and morphing and the gay club scene is starting to happen more in the inner west again.

Well as far as bitchy queens go, best avoid them altogether, its not a pretty sight hehe

[waterrat]

It seems we could take a page or two from our esteemed sisters with regard to a few things! :D

[Melbourne Lesbian]

Well I definitely noticed the difference over the years in the level of aggression on the gay scene. Its not physical aggression but more rudeness and anti social behaviour.
The 80's were a very friendly happy era as far as the scene, music and drugs went as E was the predominant drug of choice but as Ice took over the vibe changed and it became very dark. Many people moved away from the scene completely because they just couldnt tolerate it any longer including myself.

Yes, there is definately a different vibe now. Now, more than ever, people seem to dance to be seen, rather than for pure enjoyment. It's quite sad really considering the dancefloor used to be used to unite people, rather than set-up pretentious stereotypes.

And, i agree with you. I couldn't be bothered going out either. I value my time too much ;)