Okay, just rushing in and out of the house but just wanted to quickly add:

If there are people here who claim to be genuinely against racism and racist behavior in the gay community - then why are we arguing about the definition of racism or validating/invalidating people's experience of racism?

I'm just gonna quickly ask - the writer here is sharing his experience and even though he has selected a few key experiences, I think it's fair to say as a racial minority myself, we would have experienced many types of racism - from implicit racism to overt racism to systemic racism - in our daily lives in Australia because you have to admit that since we are not the majority - we are not as privileged or given as many opportunities as the majority (if you honestly believe everyone is on the same playing level field - you are deeply in denial).

So this is the deal: this writer including myself and in addition to some other people who have reported about not feeling completely welcomed and accepted (I will provide the links for this later) in the gay community.

So, rather than going in circles, let's switch this discussion momentarily:

Is there a solution for the racial minorities who don't feel welcomed in the greater community because they're gay (and a racial minority) BUT also don't feel welcomed and accepted in the gay community because of their race?

How do we lessen the double discrimination they encounter?

Hope to hear some constructive and positive replies. Catch ya guys later...

I'm curious: what about the reverse of the "no asians" - what about people who have a preference for certain 'races'?

The term (pejorative?) "rice queen" seems to be bandied about a lot on this site.

Is that racist?

Are they fetishising 'race'?

A preference for a 'racial' group would by definition exclude other groups
- so would being a "rice queen" be any different to being a "no asians"?


Also; is it the actual preference/prejudice/feelings/thoughts that several of you feel is racist,
or only the act of actually stating it in a dating profile?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ammonite

I'm curious: what about the reverse of the "no asians" - what about people who have a preference for certain 'races'?

The term (pejorative?) "rice queen" seems to be bandied about a lot on this site.

Is that racist?

Are they fetishising 'race'?

A preference for a 'racial' group would by definition exclude other groups
- so would being a "rice queen" be any different to being a "no asians"?


Also; is it the actual preference/prejudice/feelings/thoughts that several of you feel is racist,
or only the act of actually stating it in a dating profile?

It's referred to as exoticfication. It's the other end of racism and seldom discussed.

So yes, saying 'Asians only' is the same as 'no Asians'.

And yes they are fetishising race and Asian men aren't the only ones who experience this either.

I also see 'no blonds' and 'no rangas' in their profiles, although not as common.

A lot of immigrants come here and whinge that life in the old country was better. Just think of the whinging poms. (and isn't that a racist term - 'whinging poms'?) Often the migrants return to their country of origin, and they either stay there, or decide life was better here and return. In that latter case, they generally get on with life and make the most of it.
I suggest the subjects of this thread are just the whinging Indians.

Good morning y'all...

I'm back. Watched The Avengers last nite - and for all you comic geeks: GO WATCH IT! You'd think you died and went to Asgard! Joss Whedon is AWESOME!

Anyway, I see that no one has responded to the questions of my last post:

Is there a solution for the racial minorities who don't feel welcomed in the greater community because they're gay (and a racial minority) BUT also don't feel welcomed and accepted in the gay community because of their race?

How do we lessen the double discrimination they encounter?

Perhaps, you guys need some time to think it through? Okay. Put your thinking caps on then



In the meantime...let's talk about this:

With the addition of Alex1987's article, he is the latest person to address the issue of sexual racism and racism in the gay community.

Others who have done that before are:-

1) Gary Lo, who was featured in an article from the Sydney Star Observer:

Gary Lo has experienced more racism within Sydney’s gay community than he has in the mainstream community.

When he went to gay venues people muttered things like fucking nip. He found it almost impossible to get served at bars, as the staff would look straight past him. And when he tried internet chat rooms, the minute the issue of race came up people would say they weren’t interested.

All this came as a shock to Lo, 25, when he first hit the scene.

When you come out you experience so much rejection and ostracism in the wider community, and you look on the gay community as this haven you can escape to and expect it to be welcoming and accepting and loving, Lo told Sydney Star Observer.

Then you go out and you get racial slurs and you think maybe that was just one night. So you go again and it happens again, and again and again, and it eats away at your self-esteem. Then you start to internalise it. You think, maybe it’s me. Maybe I’m not pretty enough, he said.

Then I started talking to other Asian people and they said they go through the same thing. I realised it’s a bigger problem. It’s a systemic problem. It’s a complex issue.

More here: http://www.starobserver.com.au/news/...ng-racism/9144

Next came,

2) Benjamin Law, who wrote an article last month entitled, "Race-based attraction" and in his first paragraph, he tells us an exchange he had on Grindr and informs us:

"Maybe I'm paranoid, but I have the distinct feeling I've encountered my first case of online race-based rejection. Everything was going smoothly with Potato until I mentioned I was Asian."

And in his article he interviews several other people such as:

3) Nic, a semi-regular Grindr user, who says: "The level of racism with these apps and websites is horrific,"

"One time, someone even had emojicons for Asian and Indian men; he couldn't even be bothered to write the words."

4) Tony Ayres, a Chinese-Australian filmmaker, who had written about Australia's gay scene before, says that:

"If you're young and good-looking, you're at the top of the social hierarchy. What I didn't realise was that being Chinese was actually a distinctive sexual category in a racial hierarchy. Asians were behind black and Latino men in the scale of things. White men were on top."

"It's difficult to find a way of talking about this that doesn't sound like you're the dick police. Because then, not only are you sensitive, you're dull, too. But obviously, desire is racialised. Whether it's conscious or unconscious, there are exclusions, and people come to generalisations about Asian men: feminine; small dicks."

5) Kevin, another Grindr user, shares these thoughts and observations:

"Everyone's entitled to their own sexual preference. I don't believe in affirmative action when it comes to having sex."

Still, Kevin has seen enough online gay profiles with "No Asians" on them that he can't dismiss it, either:

"I'm hypersensitive, but that's because I know it exists. Whenever I get snubbed, it's always in the back of my mind whether it's because he's not interested in Asian people. Gay guys put a premium on hyper-masculinity, and part of the reason I'm so body-conscious is because I don't want to be that 'twink' Asian stereotype."

6) Gilbert Caluya, a young gay Filipino-Australian academic, describe[d] an experience where one man at a club literally put his palm to Caluya's face and said, "I don't do Asians." This was before Caluya even spoke to him.

Here's the full article: http://www.dailylife.com.au/life-and...326-1vta1.html

Apart from articles, people have also addressed this issue on blogs such as:

7) WY, a gay Asian man living is Sydney, who shares his thoughts and feelings on the issue on the blog, Stop Racism and Homophobia on Grindr:

"I never knew there was a sexual hierarchy."

"I never knew that being Asian is less desirable."

"I never knew that because I am Asian I cannot pick and choose like the white boys, that only the “rejects” will have me i.e the “overweight, much much older, and deemed unattractive by mainstream media”. Apparently any white guy who would even consider me is obviously into an Asian fetish type of thing."

And there are people who have appeared on forums - specifically on SameSame's forum like me, Azul (person no. 8) and I've shared my views on the Sexual Racism thread and so has xtacee1990 (person no. 9) who posted this comment below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by xtacee1990

If you're gay and non-atheletic/ skewed towards femininity/ non-white, good luck living a gay life. You'll most likely end up having no boyfriends or w someone who is old enough to be your grand-father :P.

PS: and I love how people disclaim me and try to make sound better but they themselves just do not want to date gays in the aforementioned group. I bet more than half the gays would pick a dead white man over an Asian/ fem gay lol.

So, including Alex's article, that's ten people altogether - who have raised this issue one way or another that sexual racism is an issue in the gay community (I haven't even included individuals from the UK and the US and I'm sure there many others on SameSame who feel the same way but have chosen not to speak on the matter on this site).

But based on the responses from some of the posters here - apparently it isn't an issue at all.

And time and time again I have noticed people have been vehemently dismissing and denying the existence of sexual racism and that racism has occurred in the gay community.

So, if a group of people's experiences are dismissed and ignored, can someone please tell me what will it take for this issue to be seriously considered and discussed?

FFS, why do men, gay or straight, believe that they have the right to have sex with anyone they want? That's all that list reinforces, Azul.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irene

FFS, why do men, gay or straight, believe that they have the right to have sex with anyone they want? That's all that list reinforces, Azul.

Hi Irene,

Why don't you read all the articles listed and tell me if that's all you think sexual racism is about?

Why is this issue so confronting that people even refuse to properly read the experiences of these individuals?

Why do people make reductive* assumptions about it - what exactly are people afraid of finding out if they try to see the issue from someone who believes that they are being discriminated on the basis of their race?



*reductive because people keep saying it's about a bunch of people whining about not getting to hook up with the person they want.

It's about how people are treated solely based on their race - and how this affect their sense of worth and sense of belonging in the gay community.

It's about the space in which people are supposed to feel welcomed and accepted and yet there are others who constantly - consciously or unconsciously - make this space seemingly hostile and unwelcoming because they have a negative attitude towards people of certain races.

Whine


Whine


Whinge


Nag


Complain



Whine



Whinge



Would there be less whining if someone stuck a penis into your mouth?


Whose penis? Would my penis do?


Would you start complaining that my penis isn't good enough for you?

Would you like to shop around? There are good cocks in Africa; would you like to go there?


Whine, whine ad nauseum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark_

Whine


Whine


Whinge


Nag


Complain



Whine



Whinge



Would there be less whining if someone stuck a penis into your mouth?


Whose penis? Would my penis do?


Would you start complaining that my penis isn't good enough for you?

Would you like to shop around? There are good cocks in Africa; would you like to go there?


Whine, whine ad nauseum.

What a classy and positive response, Mark.

You are most certainly wise and kind in your old age (101 years old right?)...

Quote:

Originally Posted by azulmelb

Hi Irene,

Why don't you read all the articles listed and tell me if that's all you think sexual racism is about?

Because I've got better things to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irene

Because I've got better things to do.

Then perhaps - and I say this respectfully - you shouldn't be commenting on stuff that you're not aware of and evidently don't wish to educate yourself on?

Like I know nothing about the challenges and issues of transgendered people, so I don't go onto their thread making assumptions about their lives...

Love u azul:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by azulmelb

Then perhaps - and I say this respectfully - you shouldn't be commenting on stuff that you're not aware of and evidently don't wish to educate yourself on?

Like I know nothing about the challenges and issues of transgendered people, so I don't go onto their thread making assumptions about their lives...

i did all that before you were even a twinkle in your father's eye. I don't need to repeat the same exercise my whole bloody life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irene

FFS, why do men, gay or straight, believe that they have the right to have sex with anyone they want? That's all that list reinforces, Azul.

Because gay culture is hyper sexual and in order to belong and fit in with most sub-groups and to be accepted by many guys, you have to be attractive (usually sexually) to them, even ironically for platonic friendships. I know there are many guys who have the belief that if you don't get sex with a person or are not included in sexual activity with a group, you really don't belong and are not wanted. Ridiculous and shallow, yes. Yet that's how many guys operate and nothing is sadly going to change the behaviour.

very true Ash

wrong ammonite, my worry is when i had so much freedom in India being gay, and so much exposure, Australia or any other western country is expected to deliver more because as you said in your posts before we are often misinterpreted with the caste system that existed and we are often considered third world country, so even if it was my expectation it was genuine because India ia far more advanced now

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex1987

…India ia far more advanced now

But it seems that sati was still forced onto women as recently as 1987 (which I'm guessing is the year of your birth)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)

been 26 years mark if you are good at maths, also you are again singing the same song, may be google again and check crime stories of australia or whatever your country of origin is and you will be shocked to see what extent people can go to.Adelaide 1999" Dismembered bodies in chamber of horrors,Sydney pedophile murderer, and the list goes on...

And also the ancient picture you posted from mughal Era is when caste system started and sati was abolished after independence. sati as an issue had been settled in 1829 when it was officially abolished by the British

^ Wiki says suttee was still occurring in '87. And old habits die hard. And every month we hear about men in from the west side of Asia who kill their wives and/or daughters in order to defend their honour.

WELL as i told wikki says lot about things happening here even today, so have a look pls

^
where is 'here'? … look at what?

Also mark again 87 to 2012 is 25 years and old order changes yielding place to new , what i experienced or everyone else experiences in your country was 2008 or even today. "The murder rate in Australia has remained stable despite efforts by governments" ABC says last month

@Alex - please don't bother responding to Mark.

He's not genuinely interested in seeking any understanding of your culture or about the issues we are trying to get addressed here.

I fell into the trap of answering his questions, thinking that if I give him the answers he wants then perhaps he would be more understanding or sympathetic to the issues or concerns I was/am trying to raise.

That was a false assumption. Mark doesn't care about any of this. He seems to have a lot of time to spare and he only wishes to engage in pointless and petty arguments. You will see this when you finally provide an irrefutable answer and rather than responding to your answer, he will soon disappear.

Better yet, when you ask certain questions for him to answer, he will also disappear. So, please don't bother with Mark.

Use your time and energy towards more positive and constructive endeavors, Alex.

Sorry Mark for having to say all this but that has been my observation and experience with you. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Edited to add:

Examples of Mark not responding to my answers to HIS questions or issues that HE raised:

http://www.samesame.com.au/forum/sho...&postcount=658
http://www.samesame.com.au/forum/sho...nor#post540160

Agreed Azul

I feel like echoing Irene.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irene

Because I've got better things to do.

But I am constantly amazed at the entitlement. No concept of 'paying your dues', 'doing the hard yards', or of working to win trust. Just an arrogance that newcomers demand equal treatment from a society created by others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark_

I feel like echoing Irene.

But I am constantly amazed at the entitlement. No concept of 'paying your dues', 'doing the hard yards', or of working to win trust. Just an arrogance that newcomers demand equal treatment from a society created by others.

And you think your seniority on this website gives you the right to dismiss and invalidate people's experience of racism?

And these questions that you ask - in particular, the one related to Islam and Muslims* - you are actually actively perpetuating the misconception that people have of the religion. And when I provided information that dispel that misconception, you don't bother responding.

Why do you insist on adding more mistrust and hate into this world?



*http://www.samesame.com.au/forum/sho...&postcount=658
http://www.samesame.com.au/forum/sho...nor#post540160

Quote:

Originally Posted by azulmelb

And you think your seniority on this website gives you the right to dismiss and invalidate people's experience of racism?…

No. But my seniority in Australia gives me the ability to recognise entitlement, arrogance as well as all the rest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark_

No. But my seniority in Australia gives me the ability to recognise entitlement, arrogance as well as all the rest.

Well, I'm no kid either, Mark - I've seen the world myself and I've come across all sorts of people and I'm seeing someone who rather than seeking solutions and peaceful outcomes, you'd rather spread hate and ignorance because you seem to have a rather bleak view of the world.