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tyson +

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Default What the Bible ACTUALLY says about being Gay
http://www.soulforce.org/article/hom...-gay-christian

A good read.

I found myself getting a little teary while reading.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by tyson View Post

http://www.soulforce.org/article/hom...-gay-christian

A good read.

I found myself getting a little teary while reading.

I used to find this stuff more interesting, and I accept that for peoplewho are struggling to reconcile their sexuality and faith it is probably helpful.

I'm fairly comfortable with the fact that the bible is at best highly interpreted history in parts and fiction in others and does in fact say many horrible things about all sorts of people including women, people with diabailities and many many ethnic groups.

It may be that it doesn't say quite as many horrid things about gay people than are popularly accepted, but it's still a pretty vile book and a deeply silly thing to base a set of personal or social principles on.

Yes there are some nice messages in it, but hardly anything that most wouldn't work out for themselves through a bit of thought.
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What she said.
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John Shelby Spong, there needs to be more of him
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'Hell' as an invention of the church - YouTube

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Originally Posted by MrAsh View Post

Yes that was one of my Mr Strange random remarks!

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and this, sorry....youtube and pictures say what i mean more bettera then i can articulate

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Does God Care If I'm Gay? - YouTube

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Yes that was one of my Mr Strange random remarks!

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For this argument - I will only address Christianity.

The Christian God cares if you are gay.

Under his eyes- we are an abomination.

We are to be taken out to the outskirts of town so that our blood does not defile the city when we are executed.

You cannot reconcile Christianity and Homosexuality.

What is interesting - is even Christians themselves, seem to be in disagreement with just what type of a sin homosexuality is.

For many- it is deemed " sexual immorality"- while the less stabby Christians- will deem it as the sin of " fornication" - which is exactly the same sin straight people are guilty of- if they have sex outside of wedlock.
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Hell is never even actually really mentioned in the Bible and Jesus never really spoke about it.

The general belief in the old days was- that once Christ had actually died on the cross- ALL of humanity was saved. Regardless of any action.
St Paul- addresses this- when he says " You are saved by grace and not by works- so no man can boast"

Therefore- even fisting pedos are going to heaven. Cos Jesus died for them
It is no measure of health- to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
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No, you may only be saved by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ if you acknowledge Him, and truly repent. True repentance is rare - you can't just say "yeah I'm totes sorry I fucked those kids." Doesn't count.

Regardless of the Bible's stance on homosexuality, Christians ought to look at Jesus' stance on it, since pretty much from the apple onwards God was like "you guys, are totally fucking this up, hey kid, go tell them how much they fucked up!"

So Jesus was sent to tell everyone how it was supposed to be done. So his words are the true essence and crux of Christianity. The closest thing he comes to even mentioning gays is to tell us to love the least amongst us, love each other as He has loved us, and love the prostitutes, the tax collectors and everyone else who is bad according to society - because God loves those people ten times more.

Even if you believe the Old Testament's words need to be adhered to as well (which are really contradictory and you don't see the Church fighting for the right to have slaves because the Bible says so) the Old Testament also says that only God may judge, and for humans to cast religious judgement is to try and usurp the power of God.
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That is according to the teachings of Paul.

In early Judaic law- repentance for certain sins- was made by the sacrifice of certain animals.

Jesus- was the ultimate unblemished lamb. Thus why he is referred to as the " lamb of God".

Jesus's death alone- and his descent into Hell, is allegedly all that is required to save the humans
It is no measure of health- to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
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um...what Bible did you read? Jesus went to Heaven, not Hell. He sits at the right hand of God.

The closest thing to "hell" in the bible is a vague description in Revelations.

Also, from the earliest days of Christianity, even while Jesus was alive, baptism - that is, the repentance for sin and heresy and induction to Christ, was required for his heebidajeebida saving thing to work. Soon after Jesus' death people began death bed baptisms, so Paul came up with purgatory and penance. However, repentance, was, is, and always has been necessary for saving.
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It was around the time they gave him a pony.

He liked ponies
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Sorry I could say more about the pony / heaven thing.

But Ive got a Grindr date over and he 's in the toilet so I can't really post anything to long, incase he thinks I'm writing about him.

Which in a weird way - I guess I am.

I will beeeeeeeeeeeeee baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack
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Quote:

Originally Posted by tyson View Post

http://www.soulforce.org/article/hom...-gay-christian

A good read.

I found myself getting a little teary while reading.

thanks for sharing the article Tyson.

It is nice to read some light material like that after reading 2 books "The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail" by Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln and the "The Jesus Papers" by Michael Baigent.
These are two very intersting books that look at the early evolution of the Christian Church and is quite explosive in its content. Alot of research went into both books and confronts the reader on many occasions.

The Soulforce website was quite intersting to explore as well. Some enlightning articles.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by NewFarmer View Post

I used to find this stuff more interesting, and I accept that for peoplewho are struggling to reconcile their sexuality and faith it is probably helpful.

I'm fairly comfortable with the fact that the bible is at best highly interpreted history in parts and fiction in others and does in fact say many horrible things about all sorts of people including women, people with diabailities and many many ethnic groups.

It may be that it doesn't say quite as many horrid things about gay people than are popularly accepted, but it's still a pretty vile book and a deeply silly thing to base a set of personal or social principles on.

Yes there are some nice messages in it, but hardly anything that most wouldn't work out for themselves through a bit of thought.

Agree.

but pfffffftttt to the Bible. Rewritten how many times ? remember something about some Roman Emporer or similar changing it 400 years after Jesus died.

If only they found documents written when Jesus was alive that are untainted but the Church would never allow it I dont think. Too much of what they preach may
be untrue.
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Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

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I have heard from a friend who is christian. He said "God LOVES sinners but HATES sin! NOBODY (including you and me) is not perfect and make lots of mistakes.

Hell does exist. I have heard from the youtube and book about near death experience. A guy who was atheist was very stubborn and refused to let Jesus Christ go into his heart. After he died, his soul went to the Hell. He was frightened and scary with lots of ugly devils around and huge fire around him. He could feel hot too... then the bright light comes out, Jesus saved him his life and back to the Earth. Jesus wants him to tell everyone about the Hell. Then he later becomes christian.

He showed me a link re an interesting comic book...
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0076/0076_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1056/1056_01.asp

Please tell me what do you think of it? I'm doing a research on the heaven and hell.

Last edited by pixel: 8th September 2011 at 08:04 PM

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(Sorry guys I intended this to be a short response to a good article, but got carried away. I guess I could use the delete key. But hey someone may read it.)

Thanks for sharing that article Tyson. It was very interesting.

Sadly, in what seems like another lifetime, I was heavily into God, church and the Bible. I even studied theology for a time. Since coming out I have not been able to reconcile my faith with my sexuality. However I know many people who have, and I admire them for it.

It takes great strength to openly admit one is a gay Christian. Those people are so often shunned by both the church and many in the LGBTI community. For me the sad part of the whole Christian/gay debate is it's divisive nature. It not only attempts to separate gay people from the wider community by condemning us as evil sinners. But also in many ways creates division within our LGBTI community.

I was at a dinner party a few months ago (all gay guys and girls) when one of the guests said, "I don't know how any gay people can be Christian. They are deluded traitors and don't deserve to call themselves gay...” While this person's view was clearly extreme, I was surprised to find that most of the group had similar views, albeit less extreme. This was very sad; as I knew one of the people there was in fact a gay Christian. I wonder how that person felt listening to the discussion???

Does this debate need to be so polarised?

The Bible is a complicated document. It attempts to reveal the mysteries of the world. Mysteries that the ancients (and many believers today) personified in the form of God. So in that sense, the bible is God's narrative; the story of who and what God is. Like any personal narrative there is not one story but many. Think of your own identity. Your life isn't just one long story, but rather a collection of intersecting narratives, about your childhood, your family, your school, your home, your work. In each of these stories we play slightly different roles. In one you're someone’s son or daughter, in another, a friend or partner and so on. I believe the bible is like this. It is a collection of narratives, combining together to tell a single story.

Cut down to its basics the bible tells the following simple story. A god wanted a people to love him of their own free will. So created humankind. For a time it worked, then humankind rebelled and sinned. The unavoidable consequence of sin is eternal separation from God. The bible calls this death. God loved his people so much that he didn't want to see this happen, so set about trying to restore the people to him. He gave them the law to follow. However man couldn't/wouldn't follow the law. So God decided that he would pay the price to restore the communion between people and God and sent his son to die. So Jesus did the whole cross thing and suffered death in order to restore God and mankind. This act defeated death (eternal separation from God) and Jesus was raised from the dead to prove this. He then went back to heaven to be with his father, with the promise of a return when he would win the final victory.

The religious aspect aside, I find this a fascinating story (even though I believe it to be a fiction), because it reveals more about humankind than any God. As humans we are capable of great evil and great good, sometimes in the same act. Yet ultimately I feel we are all searching for the same thing. That is; someone to love, someone to be with, share our lives with, the ultimate place of acceptance and belonging. All human narratives, I would suggest, share this theme. The Bible tells this story, and does it well. But it takes a particular literacy to understand, one that is unfortunately lost in our modern western mindset and very few (especially certain churches) take the time to learn it.

The article and subject of this thread, weather you believe in Christianity or not, is excellent. Because Rev Mel White attempts to educate us more in the literacy we need to understand this important and complicated book. And while it may fall on deaf ears with fundamentalist Christians, I hope that we as individuals in the LGBTI community use it to understand and accept others with different views, rather than divide.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Light-Bearer View Post

Hell is never even actually really mentioned in the Bible and Jesus never really spoke about it.

The general belief in the old days was- that once Christ had actually died on the cross- ALL of humanity was saved. Regardless of any action.
St Paul- addresses this- when he says " You are saved by grace and not by works- so no man can boast"

Therefore- even fisting pedos are going to heaven. Cos Jesus died for them

Light Bearer, the doctrine you are talking about here is what christian theologians call universal salvation theology. That is the belief that all people will be saved because of the act of Christ. In latin this is 'ex opere operato' meaning 'from the work done' as opposed to 'ex opere operantis' from the actions of the doer. There are many church leaders who hold this belief however it is not nor has it ever been a widely accepted belief even historically. Paul, on the other hand, was talking about salvation through grace, which requires action on behalf of the person. Namely repentance and baptism, the idea being that grace is a gift freely given but must be accepted by the act of contrition. This doctrine has and has always been more widely accepted by christians historically.

Also hell is mentioned in the bible and by Christ, not that I believe in it. He didn't call it hell, but he mentioned it none the less. You Find this in Matthew: 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea that caught all kinds of fish. 13:48 When it was full, they pulled it ashore, sat down, and put the good fish into containers and threw the bad away. 13:49 It will be this way at the end of the age. Angels will come and separate the evil from the righteous 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, 62 where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Please don't think I am saying this is what will happen to gay people or anyone for that matter, because I don't believe the bible at all. I am merely commenting on your post. There is also a wider context to take into account with this passage.
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The bible is irrelevant, it's what the head shed of the day espouses that people go by.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Brightside05 View Post

The bible is irrelevant, it's what the head shed of the day espouses that people go by.

For many people the bible holds a lot of personal relevance. What do you say to those people?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius View Post

For many people the bible holds a lot of personal relevance. What do you say to those people?

That I respect their right to believe whatever they like, but that as an ardent believer in western liberal democracy i believe it is essential that in any situation where there is a tension between extending rights and religious teachings that it must always be religion that loses the argument and that an excess of visible religiousness in public spaces is probably not a great idea.

In short the right to be free of religion and religious influences trumps the right of people to have their beliefs accommodated.

and hopefully i'd put it in a way that is polite so i don't come off like Richard Dawkins, who always strikes me as a bit priggish.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by NewFarmer View Post

That I respect their right to believe whatever they like, but that as an ardent believer in western liberal democracy i believe it is essential that in any situation where there is a tension between extending rights and religious teachings that it must always be religion that loses the argument and that an excess of visible religiousness in public spaces is probably not a great idea.

In short the right to be free of religion and religious influences trumps the right of people to have their beliefs accommodated.

and hopefully i'd put it in a way that is polite so i don't come off like Richard Dawkins, who always strikes me as a bit priggish.

I agree with you totally.

Although, the church is part of the apparatus of western liberal democracy. In fact I question the ability of western democracy to exist without the church. There is no such thing as the separation of church and state, they are completely linked.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by pixel View Post

I have heard from a friend who is christian. He said "God LOVES sinners but HATES sin! NOBODY (including you and me) is not perfect and make lots of mistakes.

Hell does exist. I have heard from the youtube and book about near death experience. A guy who was atheist was very stubborn and refused to let Jesus Christ go into his heart. After he died, his soul went to the Hell. He was frightened and scary with lots of ugly devils around and huge fire around him. He could feel hot too... then the bright light comes out, Jesus saved him his life and back to the Earth. Jesus wants him to tell everyone about the Hell. Then he later becomes christian.
He showed me a link re an interesting comic book...
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0076/0076_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1056/1056_01.asp

Please tell me what do you think of it? I'm doing a research on the heaven and hell.

How can you do research on places that don't exist? There is absolutely no evidence for either heaven or hell that would pass the most basic of scientific scrutiny.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius View Post

I agree with you totally.

Although, the church is part of the apparatus of western liberal democracy. In fact I question the ability of western democracy to exist without the church. There is no such thing as the separation of church and state, they are completely linked.

really? really?

The first semblance of a democracy, imperfect as it was, came from the Greeks, as I understand my history. The Romans also had a form of democracy. What exactly makes the church so inseperable from the state? It didn't invent any of the good qualities liberal democracies have.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by trina2004 View Post

really? really?

The first semblance of a democracy, imperfect as it was, came from the Greeks, as I understand my history. The Romans also had a form of democracy. What exactly makes the church so inseperable from the state? It didn't invent any of the good qualities liberal democracies have.

I'm wondering what he means by 'state'? Our Australian Cardinal, George Pell, will get to vote for the next Pope (and probably aspires to it himself). But who in Australia voted him into his current position? Yet there is no doubt that Cardinal Pell has some clout as a lobbyist. The principle of separation-of-church-and-state stands (see sec. 116 of the Australian Constitution) even if it's not strictly applied (i.e. government funding to religious schools and religious exemptions from anti-discrimination laws).
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Quote:

Originally Posted by trina2004 View Post

really? really?

The first semblance of a democracy, imperfect as it was, came from the Greeks, as I understand my history. The Romans also had a form of democracy. What exactly makes the church so inseperable from the state? It didn't invent any of the good qualities liberal democracies have.

Democracy in both Greece and Rome was completely linked to religion. In fact the Roman senate, it's rites and institutions were considered divine. The early consul's of Rome, who chaired the senate, were considered a holy order, blessed by Jupiter Capitolinus. The will of the senate was considered the will of the god's, in fact the senate could only meet in a building considered holy. In the days of the Roman republic the High priest of Rome 'the Pontifex Maximus' automatically held a seat in the senate. The Roman senate no longer exists but the post of the Pontifex Maximus does; it is held by the current pope. The Greek institutions had similar religious rites attached to there demos.

That being said, I wasn't refering to Greek or Roman democracies. But rather the current western liberal democracies who claim a separation of church and state, yet the institutions are linked on multiple levels. On the superficial level we have the fact that every parliament is opened with a prayer (As are most legislative bodies in the western world). In our own country the welfare state would completely fall apart if not for religious institutions. ie. St Vinnies, Salvo's etc... About 40% of the government funded employment industry is controlled by religious institutions. The disparity in funding for church based schools. Then we have the hidden connections. The powerful church lobby groups, that control large numbers of pollies, including Tony Abbott. The fact that right wing religious nutters like Steve Fielding keep popping up in parliament. And the huge sums of money injected into political campaigns by some church groups. Even the framework of common law was built around the 10 commandments. And this is to just name a few.
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Last edited by Sirius: 10th September 2011 at 11:17 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius View Post

For many people the bible holds a lot of personal relevance. What do you say to those people?

I tell them to go read it. The head shed 'interprets' it as they see fit, all the way down to the blokes who gob off at the altar.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius View Post

There is no such thing as the separation of church and state, they are completely linked.

A good point my friend. Though when i talk about a separation of church and state i man in the US Constitutional sense of Government not supporting a particular religion, rather than a wholesale removal of religion in public life.

Democracy is a contested space, there are hundreds of institutions that have amorphous, historic and complex intersections with the state.

In fact within my own party the Catholic Archbishop of Sydney was instrumental in preventing a split that started in Victoria reaching NSW, thereby preventing the radically right wing Democratic Labor Party from ever gaining a foothold sure enough to ever credibly 'replace' Labor. And i think he was right to do so and i think his faith was instrumental in his thinking on the issue. It is also often said that British Labour owes as much to Methodism as Marxism.

I don't have any problem at all with religion playing a part in Australian political discourse and i would also note that unlike their counterparts in the US they, for the most part, play a very constructive and responsible role. Groups like the ACL really are absolutely not indicative of the way most faith institutions approach their relationship with Government, in fact it's a massive aberration.

I am also deeply comforted by the fact that Australians seem to be extremely reluctant to vote switch due to matters of 'faith' and don't embrace cravenly religious politicians. Fielding got up because he negotiated a good preference deal with the Victorian ALP and was comprehensively smashed at the last election. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Family First don't have any elected representatives in any parliament anymore.

Most Australians who swing their votes do so on economic management and most people who cast votes based on social issues actually tend to be from the left and vote Green. Hence, Adam Bandt.

i'm not sure I agree with you about religious groups putting large amounts of money behind political campaigns and donations. Sure, they may spend what sounds like to you and I a very large amount of money indeed but i'd make two points.

The capacity of a political donation to 'buy' a politician's view is usually grossly overstated. Most donors provide campaign donations to candidates because of their prior record, not in anticipation of their future voting. Therefore most conservative or religious donors tend to provide funding to conservative politicians. yes you do occasionally hear of a whacko group like the Exclusive Brethren attempting use their cash to wade into political campaigning, but it'd be a massive stretch to say that they've been successful or even mildly effective.

Secondly, any political donations from a religious group are absolutely minuscule compared to donations received from trade unions and business groups. Like you'd need a scanning microscope to see them in comparison.

I don't mean to come across as some sort of Dawkinsy nutter raving about keeping God out of everything. It's a free society, people are entitled to say what they think, to come together with likeminded folk and campaign on issues of importance to them, in fact i encourage it.

I'm talking strictly in terms of the total separation of legislation and religion. Which is actually what separation of church and state originally means.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius View Post

Democracy in both Greece and Rome was completely linked to religion. In fact the Roman senate, it's rites and institutions were considered divine. .

I think I misunderstood your post. I thought you were referring to Christianity specifically, which is why I referenced civilizations from before.
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I hate how trendy it has become amongst agnostics and atheist to bash Richard Dawkins. I don't know if its out of a sense of inferiority or jsut because the man's British

He's one of the more respectful outspoken atheists out there, not to mention being a very smart man.

This idea that he hates Christians and considers them to be morons comes out of people with no sense of humour taking his quotes out of context.
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