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What the Bible ACTUALLY says about being Gay

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true and fair point, quite retracted.
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Thanks for a great response Newfarmer. You make some excellent points, and I agree with most of what you said.

I must admit that my views on this subject have been formed within the context of profoundly more radical ideologies.

I agree that democracy is a contested space, and that religion is one of the many dialectic tensions that help form our western democratic synthesis. However, I would push that point further and suggest that religion plays a much greater role. Something closer to the marxist idea of it being part of the state apparatus. Although my views have softened in the last few year and now lie closer to the ideas of Michel Foucault. That is the concept that religion is one of the numerous sites for the formation, correction and surveillance of subject/citizens (along with schools, uni's, prisons, parliments, hospitals, media and many many others). Therefore there doesn't need to be a direct legal connection between church and state. Because the values of religious institutions become, at least in part, endemic within the citizenary who were partly formed within that site.

This idea could and has been argued elsewhere and better than I could ever do in this place. So I would like to get back to my original point.

In observing the Gay vs Religion debate within the LGBTI community, I am concerned that we may be watching the development of, or at least, the consolidation and normalisation of a type of gay bigotry (gays against religion) that is as ugly and unfounded as the christian bigotry we see directed at us. I was concerned about some of the comments upon reading this thread and wanted to suggest that this debate doesn't need to be so polarised. I feel there is a real danger in disregarding Christianity, the bible or any religion as fictional and without value, when it has a clear place, at least historically if nothing else, within the instituions of our democratic system. But more importantly, is the fact that it holds a special meaning for no small number in our own community.

If we are, as a community, going to maintain any semblance of holding the moral high ground on this issue, we can't do it by developing our own type of anti-religion bigotry. I believe strongly in the idea of meeting others in a place of acceptance. It is the only way real dialogue can take place.
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See what the Bible " really " says about anything is up for debate.

It is a book completely open to personal interpretation. Also- no " walk through" guide came with it.

The books within it- were written at different times by different people.
Other books- also exist. The Catholic Bible contains an entire section called the Apocrypha or some shit- and these books don't exist in the " Non Catholic" version.

Some people say the Bible " really " says that Joseph of Arimathea was Jesus's real dad- as Jesus was buried in his tomb, and it was Jewish custom that only family members could be buried in each others plots.
Some people say the Bible doesn't " really " say that Mary was a Virgin either.

So where does this leave us.

Lets put the books aside- no one is following the theology.

The Bible itself says " A tree is known by the fruit that it bears"
So let us consider the tree of Christianity and what fruit it has given to humankind.

It has given war, division, hate, homophobia, sexism, irrational expections of the universe, insane thought processes, martyrs, mad men, The Crusades, The Pope, priests and countless stories of child sex abuse.

If Jesus himself were to return and he were to see what was being done in his name.
He would become a fucking Muslim and blow himself up
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius View Post

Light Bearer, the doctrine you are talking about here is what christian theologians call universal salvation theology. That is the belief that all people will be saved because of the act of Christ. In latin this is 'ex opere operato' meaning 'from the work done' as opposed to 'ex opere operantis' from the actions of the doer. There are many church leaders who hold this belief however it is not nor has it ever been a widely accepted belief even historically. Paul, on the other hand, was talking about salvation through grace, which requires action on behalf of the person. Namely repentance and baptism, the idea being that grace is a gift freely given but must be accepted by the act of contrition. This doctrine has and has always been more widely accepted by christians historically.

Also hell is mentioned in the bible and by Christ, not that I believe in it. He didn't call it hell, but he mentioned it none the less. You Find this in Matthew: 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea that caught all kinds of fish. 13:48 When it was full, they pulled it ashore, sat down, and put the good fish into containers and threw the bad away. 13:49 It will be this way at the end of the age. Angels will come and separate the evil from the righteous 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, 62 where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Please don't think I am saying this is what will happen to gay people or anyone for that matter, because I don't believe the bible at all. I am merely commenting on your post. There is also a wider context to take into account with this passage.

When Jesus died he apparently said - " It is done"
He did not say- " it is done but only if you....."
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He looked allergic in the olden day pictorial representations I've seen.

His hair even went almost blonde and he looked white.
Which is funny for a Jewish man born in the Middle East
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Light-Bearer View Post

When Jesus died he apparently said - " It is done"
He did not say- " it is done but only if you....."

Good point mate.

That is one of the things univeralists use to support their position. So you are right... For that theology.

I was merely pointing out it isn't a widely held belief, even historically as was claimed.
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Were any of you there? No, so how do we know anything about this JC person?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Light-Bearer View Post

See what the Bible " really " says about anything is up for debate.

It is a book completely open to personal interpretation. Also- no " walk through" guide came with it.

The books within it- were written at different times by different people.
Other books- also exist. The Catholic Bible contains an entire section called the Apocrypha or some shit- and these books don't exist in the " Non Catholic" version.

Some people say the Bible " really " says that Joseph of Arimathea was Jesus's real dad- as Jesus was buried in his tomb, and it was Jewish custom that only family members could be buried in each others plots.
Some people say the Bible doesn't " really " say that Mary was a Virgin either.

So where does this leave us.

Another really good point. Althought this is what I touched on in an earlier post when I was talking about a need for the indivdual to develop a literacy (or literacies, because as you rightly point out the bible was written by many people over a long period of time) in order to understand bible. It is a myth that the bible can be correctly interpreted anyway someone wants (one that has been promoted by those with a lot to gain). Or that it's meaning is unclear. We get this problem with many historical documents (and believe it or not, the bible is actually pretty good in parts as an historical document), it is called contextual continuity. Simply put, this is the idea that the bible (or any document) can't be saying something to us that it wasn't saying to the original audience.

Imagine part of a newspaper from now gets dug up in 2000 years. The only part of it that survives is the headline from the back page that reads "Broncos defeat Sharks". Now straight away we understand this is talking about ruby league. It may seem straight forward to us. But in 2000 years sports don't exist because everyone spends all day plugged into the computer, so they have no contxtual understanding of sports, or even the concept that the back of newspaper is for sports only. It would be easy for the reader in 2000 years to claim that, in 2011 there was a fight between wild horses and sharks. This means that sharks must have had legs back then so they can fight on land. But of course the wild horses won because they were more biologically suited to land warfare.

I know this sounds far fetched, but the reality is, people do it all the time with the bible (and other historical documents), and in ways that would seem as ridiculous to the original audience as the story above. So be careful making that claim because it is what many have done over history to hyjack the bible for their own purposes.
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all I'm saying.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Light-Bearer View Post

...
The Bible itself says " A tree is known by the fruit that it bears"
So let us consider the tree of Christianity and what fruit it has given to humankind.

It has given war, division, hate, homophobia, sexism, irrational expections of the universe, insane thought processes, martyrs, mad men, The Crusades, The Pope, priests and countless stories of child sex abuse.

Sadly you are right here...

However lets temper this with a little balance.

The church has also done great good a long side the evil. Ie. Feeding the poor (st vinnies, salvos), toys to poor kids at christmas, the Red Cross, churchs practically run the welfare state in many countries, they often give generously to disaster relief. Then we have some wonderful religious art and mind blowing
buildings. There is also the fact that a lot of our early democratic ideas had there historical origions in and around the church. The list of the good the church has done is as long as the bad.

As I said in an earlier post, we are all capable of great good and great evil, sometimes in the same act. The church is no exception. In that regard it is a very human organisation.

Anyway I hate finding myself in a position where I am defending the church. But balance is what is needed in the bible vs gay debate. Throwing back counter rhetoric at the churchies is kinda silly, and not something we need to do. Wouldn't you say?
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WHO GIVES A FUCK WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT BEING GAY??????????????????????

Jesus fucking Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -_-
I want to live in a world where a chicken can cross the road without having its motives questioned.
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Well he'd probably care
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazzarus View Post

WHO GIVES A FUCK WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT BEING GAY??????????????????????

Jesus fucking Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -_-

There are a lot of gay chrisitans. Im sure they care. Lets not be gay bigots. It is as ugly as christian bigots.
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any belief in a god is a form of mental illness
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Light-Bearer View Post

any belief in a god is a form of mental illness

That comment is probably less insulting to christians than it is to the millions of people who suffer from real mental illness everyday. Shame.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius View Post

That comment is probably less insulting to christians than it is to the millions of people who suffer from real mental illness everyday. Shame.

Well put.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius View Post

That comment is probably less insulting to christians than it is to the millions of people who suffer from real mental illness everyday. Shame.

But it is a truth.

Let us bring this into the modern day.

If I were to be walking around and saying my mother gave birth to me when she was a virgin and God is my dad.

Lets just say- I sat opposite a doctor of some description and informed him that I believed that wine was blood and bread was human flesh and I must eat it- after I tell an invisible being everything I have done wrong.
What if I told this same doctor- that the reason I commit these wrong acts- is not because I myself commit them- but because a demon acts through me and within me.

I'm pretty sure we can both agree- I would be given a diagnosis very different to an " over active imagination"
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Also- how do you think he would react if I were to say " I believe I have free will but if I don't do everything the invisible being says- I will burn in an awful place for eternity- not for a week- not for a year- but forever"
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What if I were to walk into a doctors surgery and say " Yesterday - I believe I was possessed by Legion and I'm not feeling very well"
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Light-Bearer View Post

But it is a truth.

Let us bring this into the modern day.

If I were to be walking around and saying my mother gave birth to me when she was a virgin and God is my dad.

Lets just say- I sat opposite a doctor of some description and informed him that I believed that wine was blood and bread was human flesh and I must eat it- after I tell an invisible being everything I have done wrong.
What if I told this same doctor- that the reason I commit these wrong acts- is not because I myself commit them- but because a demon acts through me and within me.

I'm pretty sure we can both agree- I would be given a diagnosis very different to an " over active imagination"

I'll never forget the time a study of religion teacher who told me that there is no way to tell that in 2,000 years David Koresh may not be worshipped as Christ is now.

Her point wasn't that Koresh was misunderstood or that Christ was mad or evil, but that time has a way of changing perspectives radically and that the historic Christ is in many ways unknowable, but much like the point you make, the actual crux of the story is pretty out there and requires a belief in the possibility of the supernatural. She was catholic and held that this is what faith requires.

That said, as a set of beliefs and a consensus amongst believers has emerged over the core story of Christ that is shared by so many worldwide that it is a massive stretch to say that this is mass psychosis or a sign of mental illness in any way. A belief in the supernatural isn't mentally ill, in fact until the enlightenment it was almost universally held.

I don't have faith personally, but I don't think it's weird when people do and I think it lacks respect of a person to claim that they are metally ill when clearly they are not.
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When I look at the calendar I note that the year is now 2011.

Just because an irrational belief has been around for a long time- does not make it valid or beneficial.

It is time to call a spade a spade.

We cannot sustain these beliefs as a species.
They are just impractical and serve no other purpose but to make us feel better about death and better about being terrible to each other.

It's nice to feel good.
I do not dispute this.

It's nice to have comfort and to believe in unicorns and easter bunnies and Santa and Jesus and Ganesh and Vishnu and Allah and etc etc.

But the universe. Well it's not really that nice.

It's interesting and amazing things happen here- and parts of it are nice.

But as a great big(black) whole- it can be pretty sucky.

(See what I did there.)
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Light-Bearer View Post

any belief in a god is a form of mental illness

Joan of Arc displayed all the symptons of what is currently diagnosed as schizophrenia.
St Paul's conversion on the Road to Damascus has also been explained as epilepsy or a seizure caused by sunstroke.
There are probably plenty of others. David Koresh and Rev Jim Jones at the very least had delusions of grandeur. As for those who so readily followed them to death....
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god has had his day.

It is time for reason to prevail.

In time.
Jesus will be as quaint as the classical gods
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Light-Bearer View Post

When I look at the calendar I note that the year is now 2011.

Just because an irrational belief has been around for a long time- does not make it valid or beneficial.

It is time to call a spade a spade.

We cannot sustain these beliefs as a species.
They are just impractical and serve no other purpose but to make us feel better about death and better about being terrible to each other.

It's nice to feel good.
I do not dispute this.

It's nice to have comfort and to believe in unicorns and easter bunnies and Santa and Jesus and Ganesh and Vishnu and Allah and etc etc.

But the universe. Well it's not really that nice.

It's interesting and amazing things happen here- and parts of it are nice.

But as a great big(black) whole- it can be pretty sucky.

(See what I did there.)

+2011
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