Stop policing people's thoughts

Quote:

Originally Posted by azulmelb

Ooh...that's an interesting info. Lemme give you an interesting info of my own - I'm curved and above average

Shall I book my Great Melbourne Vacation then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wysi

Shall I book my Great Melbourne Vacation then?

Ooh...you can if you want. And I have mates that are very big on group bonding activities too...

And one of them is curved exactly the way you like it....

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrAsh

Trina it is a genuine problem and sexual racism is not an intelligista conspiracy either. If it wasn't an everyday and highly personal issue then people wouldn't be raising it or discussing it. Also the lengths at which people go to to justify having racical prefences both disliking or liking makes me think what went through someone like Heinrich Himmler's mind.

I'm saying that was a weak argument. I've yet to hear/see anyone on this thread say 'i find all Asians unnatractive' so perhaps some of the negativity of this thread stems from how azul began it, namely (paraphrasing) : sexual racism is a problem. You lot are probably racists. If you don't want to have a scholarly discussion on the topic that's just proof that you are a racist.


And before you accuse me of cherry picking I would like to note the many, many replies that show that that^^ is what people thought you meant, whether that was your intention or not I won't speculate.

I think this thread is founded on a miscommunication.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trina2004

I'm saying that was a weak argument. I've yet to hear/see anyone on this thread say 'i find all Asians unnatractive' so perhaps some of the negativity of this thread stems from how azul began it, namely (paraphrasing) : sexual racism is a problem. You lot are probably racists. If you don't want to have a scholarly discussion on the topic that's just proof that you are a racist.


And before you accuse me of cherry picking I would like to note the many, many replies that show that that^^ is what people thought you meant, whether that was your intention or not I won't speculate.

I think this thread is founded on a miscommunication.

Trina I think you're replying to both Azulmelb and myself.

All I'm going to say is that everytime you raise the topic of sexual racism, you get the same responses. They are pretty predictable. Hence why a lot of the older Same Samers are rolling their eyes and thinking not bloody again.

One of the reasons why it's such a touchy topic is that sexuality is a personal issue and there is a lot of politic around it.

I'd recommend you do some research on sexual racism, internalised racism and exoticfication. There are a lot of peer reviewed academic articles on the topic, as well as general opinion articles.

As far as I'm concerned anyone who has a preference on race or ethnicity either liking or disliking is being racist.

You like the individual for who they are and not what they are.

Remember no one likes a racist Trina!

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrAsh

Trina I think you're replying to both Azulmelb and myself.

All I'm going to say is that everytime you raise the topic of sexual racism, you get the same responses. They are pretty predictable. Hence why a lot of the older Same Samers are rolling their eyes and thinking not bloody again.

One of the reasons why it's such a touchy topic is that sexuality is a personal issue and there is a lot of politic around it.

I'd recommend you do some research on sexual racism, internalised racism and exoticfication. There are a lot of peer reviewed academic articles on the topic, as well as general opinion articles.

As far as I'm concerned anyone who has a preference on race or ethnicity either liking or disliking is being racist.

You like the individual for who they are and not what they are.

Remember no one likes a racist Trina!

Only if they objectify that race. Like...saying "I only like white guys" is racist. But just...happening to date white guys your whole life without ever considering a racial aspect...no.

There is strong evidence that we 'imprint' on our parents faces as babies. That's why there's that adage that you 'marry your mother/father'. Obviously this isn't a hard and fast rule, but it is just a fact of infant brain development that we are more likely to appreciate those features, and connect them with something we love. There are cultural influences, obviously, but I hardly think you can blast anyone who has dated only people of a particular race as racist.

This can be applied to any country that benefited from colonialism, yes?

The benefits and legacy of White Privilege...

"I never knew there was a sexual hierarchy."

"I never knew that being Asian is less desirable."

"I never knew that because I am Asian I cannot pick and choose like the white boys, that only the “rejects” will have me i.e the “overweight, much much older, and deemed unattractive by mainstream media”. Apparently any white guy who would even consider me is obviously into an Asian fetish type of thing."

- WY, gay male Asian in Sydney*


"It’s upsetting."

"It’s not just that they find you unattractive, it’s that you’re so unattractive that they couldn’t even bear to receive a message from you."

"It brings the feeling that I’m intrinsically unattractive; that, somehow, ethnic minorities are less attractive than caucasians."

- Ramesh, half Sri Lankan, half Anglo**


"As a biracial couple, we are especially attuned to such attitudes.

My Asian husband tends to like or dislike cities by the number of friends we make on social apps -- thus Boston is better than Los Angeles, and Berlin better than London."

"We made a test and changed his app picture to show only his torso. His dedication to healthy cuisine was rewarded by a whopping 143 Hi!s in half an hour!

Of those, 140 disappeared or blocked him when shown his -- and you must believe me here -- absolutely gorgeous Asian face."

"I won't tell you which city, but we ain't gonna visit there again, I tell you."

- Marten Weber, biracial couple***


“Many, many years back, when I first came out, I went to this club and I thought ‘wow, this is great!’

The women all dancing with each other."

“[I was] hoping that someone would just ask me to dance and. It didn’t happen but I got up and I danced just by myself.

And then someone said, ‘You stupid, beep, beep, beep. Why don’t you just get off this dance floor? You’re in my way’.”

“They were drunk but when I say ‘beep, beep, beep…’ it was quite derogatory towards black people.

So I realised that maybe that place was not for me; I didn’t see anybody that looked like me, to be able to sit there and feel comfortable with them.”

- Phyll Opoku, black lesbian, UK^


"I once challenged a guy who told me he wasn't into Asian men."

"I asked him why was that?

He said was into beefier men."

"I pointed out there are many beefy Asian and Pacific Islander men.

He then said he liked hairy men."

"Certainly, a bit more difficult to find, but there are hairier Asian men out there.

So why make a blanket disqualifying statement like ''I'm not attracted to Asian men'' based on racialized assumptions about Asian male bodies when his preference is actually toward hairy and beefy men?"

"The absolute refusal to deconstruct those racial biases and to declare ''No Asians,'' ''No Blacks,'' or whomever is sexual racism.

And so many gays looking for love or a hook up aren't even embarrassed about it."

- Daniel W.K.Lee, gay male Asian, New York^^


"When you come out you experience so much rejection and ostracism in the wider community, and you look on the gay community as this haven you can escape to and expect it to be welcoming and accepting and loving.

Then you go out and you get racial slurs and you think maybe that was just one night."

"So you go again and it happens again, and again and again, and it eats away at your self-esteem.

Then you start to internalise it. You think, maybe it’s me. Maybe I’m not pretty enough."

"Then I started talking to other Asian people and they said they go through the same thing. I realised it’s a bigger problem.

It’s a systemic problem. It’s a complex issue."

- Gary Lo, gay male Asian, Sydney^^^


"IT'S NOT RACISM! IT'S A PREFERENCE!"

- people dismissing the experiences of gay minorities~






*http://stopracismandhomophobiaongrin...gay-asian-male
**http://sosogay.org/2011/profile-prejudice/
***http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marten...b_1295368.html
^http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/02/25...the-gay-scene/
^^http://www.metroweekly.com/news/opinion/?ak=5613
^^^http://www.starobserver.com.au/news/...ng-racism/9144
~SameSame forums

Well the Hot Boys of the Week thread has gone from an unconscious list of mostly Caucasians to a self-conscious list of non-Caucasians. This proves some point?
Pics were being put up because the poster thought they were hot. Now they’re going up because of race. Since the agenda has become self-conscious it’s a moot point whether the poster – or anyone – thinks the pics hot.
So, if I’m interpreting this thread correctly, the manipulative shift away from Caucasians to non-Caucasians means that racism is still occuring in the other thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by azulmelb

I know of one Assyrian gay man in Sydney and we have spoken about how sexual racism has affected his life and in our conversations he mentioned contemplating suicide.

Don't you think that homophobia has more to do with his state of mental health than "sexual racism"?

Personally I have never seen a "no middle easterns" written in a profile, or said to me personally (I sometimes get mistaken for a person of middle eastern appearance, but I'm pretty sure I'm white as my ancestors are europeans).

Don't you think that perhaps his cultural upbringing telling him that homosexuality is wrong is more likely the culprit?

If anyone is to blame (and it's not white gay men) it's his family's fault for not making him confident enough to be able to withstand sexual rejection by a portion of people, so please don't labour us with the responsibility of making sure that a gay man who was raised in a conservtive homophobic culture doesn't committ suicide. That's his family's fault for not being supportive.

EVERYONE experiences sexual rejection at some point. Whilst I agree that people should be polite about their preferences (this concept was successfully argued in the late 90s with the "sexual racism sux" campaign), I do think that people need to live in the real world and understand that not everyone they find desirable will find them desirable in return.

Alot of guys don't like my hairy back. Now I could bitch and moan about it and argue that they were being racist against hairy wogs, or I could find a crowd that likes hair wog backs (I refuse to shave because I couldn't be bothered with the hassle). problem solved.

It's a pity that more people aren't confident enough in themselves to be able to overcome rejection.

Perhaps the next phase of the "sexual racism sux" campaign should move onto teaching people how to be strong, because there is only so much that can be done about cruel, rejecting white gay men who have a sexual preference that doesn't include people from other races.

And yes I have no references for any of my arguments. It's probably because I'm just a dumb wog.

ps. I note that when I asked Azul what his (or her) personal experience of sexual racism was, all we got in return was a whole bunch of references to OTHER people's experiences. it's almost like he's a pure academic who has no real understand of the issue personally.

He's the Sheldon of the SameSame world....

He's probably some stupid honky.

^ You are not allowed to say things like that.

Shut up ya cracker

Agree re Azul's personal experience on this subject.

Def something bad happened. Suppose his/her call if they want to tell.

Hmm?

Oh...erm lemme look at some stuff first before commenting on the latest comments....

Same Same Media Player

Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack - YouTube

Troll

People can have sex with whomever they want but they must be accountable on the way they express their so-called preference.

Sexual racism creates a hostile, unsafe and unwelcoming environment to the individuals that are rejected and excluded specifically due to their race and/or nationality.

Such an environment infringes upon their human rights because they are denied the right to feel safe, welcomed and accepted in their own community.


The Universal Declaration of Human Rights:


Article 25
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Article 27
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

Article 29
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.


http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/


"I never knew there was a sexual hierarchy."

"I never knew that being Asian is less desirable."

"I never knew that because I am Asian I cannot pick and choose like the white boys, that only the “rejects” will have me i.e the “overweight, much much older, and deemed unattractive by mainstream media”. Apparently any white guy who would even consider me is obviously into an Asian fetish type of thing."

- WY, gay male Asian in Sydney*


"It’s upsetting."

"It’s not just that they find you unattractive, it’s that you’re so unattractive that they couldn’t even bear to receive a message from you."

"It brings the feeling that I’m intrinsically unattractive; that, somehow, ethnic minorities are less attractive than caucasians."

- Ramesh, half Sri Lankan, half Anglo**


"As a biracial couple, we are especially attuned to such attitudes.

My Asian husband tends to like or dislike cities by the number of friends we make on social apps -- thus Boston is better than Los Angeles, and Berlin better than London."

"We made a test and changed his app picture to show only his torso. His dedication to healthy cuisine was rewarded by a whopping 143 Hi!s in half an hour!

Of those, 140 disappeared or blocked him when shown his -- and you must believe me here -- absolutely gorgeous Asian face."

"I won't tell you which city, but we ain't gonna visit there again, I tell you."

- Marten Weber, biracial couple***


“Many, many years back, when I first came out, I went to this club and I thought ‘wow, this is great!’

The women all dancing with each other."

“[I was] hoping that someone would just ask me to dance and. It didn’t happen but I got up and I danced just by myself.

And then someone said, ‘You stupid, beep, beep, beep. Why don’t you just get off this dance floor? You’re in my way’.”

“They were drunk but when I say ‘beep, beep, beep…’ it was quite derogatory towards black people.

So I realised that maybe that place was not for me; I didn’t see anybody that looked like me, to be able to sit there and feel comfortable with them.”

- Phyll Opoku, black lesbian, UK^


"I once challenged a guy who told me he wasn't into Asian men."

"I asked him why was that?

He said was into beefier men."

"I pointed out there are many beefy Asian and Pacific Islander men.

He then said he liked hairy men."

"Certainly, a bit more difficult to find, but there are hairier Asian men out there.

So why make a blanket disqualifying statement like ''I'm not attracted to Asian men'' based on racialized assumptions about Asian male bodies when his preference is actually toward hairy and beefy men?"

"The absolute refusal to deconstruct those racial biases and to declare ''No Asians,'' ''No Blacks,'' or whomever is sexual racism.

And so many gays looking for love or a hook up aren't even embarrassed about it."

- Daniel W.K.Lee, gay male Asian, New York^^


"When you come out you experience so much rejection and ostracism in the wider community, and you look on the gay community as this haven you can escape to and expect it to be welcoming and accepting and loving.

Then you go out and you get racial slurs and you think maybe that was just one night."

"So you go again and it happens again, and again and again, and it eats away at your self-esteem.

Then you start to internalise it. You think, maybe it’s me. Maybe I’m not pretty enough."

"Then I started talking to other Asian people and they said they go through the same thing. I realised it’s a bigger problem.

It’s a systemic problem. It’s a complex issue."

- Gary Lo, gay male Asian, Sydney^^^




*http://stopracismandhomophobiaongrin...gay-asian-male
**http://sosogay.org/2011/profile-prejudice/
***http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marten...b_1295368.html
^http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/02/25...the-gay-scene/
^^http://www.metroweekly.com/news/opinion/?ak=5613
^^^http://www.starobserver.com.au/news/...ng-racism/9144

So what is the solution? Fuck everyone you meet so you don't offend anyone by rejecting them?

There is a massive difference between saying "no asians/blacks", "whites only" etc etc (which IS sexual racism, and has been mostly agreed upon as a bad thing), and saying no to someone because you don't find them attractive. Even if you are one of the people who says "whites only" it doesn't mean you'll find ALL white guys attractive, so even someone who doesn't give a damn about their partner's race isn't going to find everyone of every race everywhere attractive. Where do you draw the line between rejection due to not being attracted to someone, and sexual racism?

If, say, a white guy rejects a black guy by saying "Sorry, I'm not attracted to you" and the black guy takes that as "I'm not into black guys", who is accountable for that feeling of racism and rejection? What is your proposed solution? Even if the rejection contains NO explicit reference or allusion to the persons race, some people will always take it that way because of the general racism in society - not just due to sexual racism. So what is the line, and what is the solution?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensign-charlie

So what is the solution? Fuck everyone you meet so you don't offend anyone by rejecting them?

There is a massive difference between saying "no asians/blacks", "whites only" etc etc (which IS sexual racism, and has been mostly agreed upon as a bad thing), and saying no to someone because you don't find them attractive. Even if you are one of the people who says "whites only" it doesn't mean you'll find ALL white guys attractive, so even someone who doesn't give a damn about their partner's race isn't going to find everyone of every race everywhere attractive. Where do you draw the line between rejection due to not being attracted to someone, and sexual racism?

If, say, a white guy rejects a black guy by saying "Sorry, I'm not attracted to you" and the black guy takes that as "I'm not into black guys", who is accountable for that feeling of racism and rejection? What is your proposed solution? Even if the rejection contains NO explicit reference or allusion to the persons race, some people will always take it that way because of the general racism in society - not just due to sexual racism. So what is the line, and what is the solution?

That's a good question, isn't it?


So, let me ask another question then - shouldn't we as a part of the queer community address this issue, in search of a solution together?


Because we would have to ensure that everyone's rights are respected.


So in order to do that - is to have an honest and genuine conversation, discussion on the matter.


And that includes trying to understand what exactly is sexual racism; how does it exhibit itself; how does it harm people of color and what are the effects and impacts upon their lives and the community as well?.


It will also include deconstructing people's preference in choosing a sexual partner or romantic partner - could they be consciously or unconsciously racially prejudiced?


If so, how did this occur - nature (biological) or nurture (socialization)?


I think after asking the right questions and looking for the answers together, hopefully we can discover the real solution.

Essentially you're just asking for people to be nice? It's nothing to do with racism, it's about decorum, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by azulmelb

That's a good question, isn't it?


So, let me ask another question then - shouldn't we as a part of the queer community address this issue, in search of a solution together?


Because we would have to ensure that everyone's rights are respected.


So in order to do that - is to have an honest and genuine conversation, discussion on the matter.


And that includes trying to understand what exactly is sexual racism; how does it exhibit itself; how does it harm people of color and what are the effects and impacts upon their lives and the community as well?.


It will also include deconstructing people's preference in choosing a sexual partner or romantic partner - could they be consciously or unconsciously racially prejudiced?


If so, how did this occur - nature (biological) or nurture (socialization)?


I think after asking the right questions and looking for the answers together, hopefully we can discover the real solution.

...so you don't have anything you want people to DO about the issue except listen to you complain and have them agree with you?

How totally useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensign-charlie

...so you don't have anything you want people to DO about the issue except listen to you complain and have them agree with you?

How totally useless.

Having the dialogue in the queer community - not just here.

I have mentioned in a previous post that I didn't join this forum to change anyone's mind - I came here in search of other individuals who feel that sexual racism should be addressed and together we can create a group to raise awareness and have the issue addressed in the community via activism and advocacy.

It would be great to set up an organization like the Men of All Colors Together/New York:


Men of All Colors Together/New York (MACT/NY)

Men of All Colors Together/New York (MACT/NY) is a multiracial, multicultural organization of gay and bisexual men committed to addressing and combating racial discrimination in the lesbian and gay male community, and to providing a supportive environment for non-oppressive relating among gay men.

MACT/NY - originally founded as Black and White Men Together/New York (BWMT/NY) - was created to address concerns about the effects of racism in the lesbian and gay community (as well as in society at-large), and the ways in which racism affects our personal lives. Our intent has been to open channnels of communication among gay men of all races and cultures, and to provide a forum for discussing and confronting issues of racism, sexism and homophobia in our community and in our lives.

A Caring Community

In all of our activities, we try to ensure racial parity. We attempt to be a multiracial gay community, the members of which care about one another. Beyond our political work and socializing, we try to remember and respond to personal needs. Our care for each other has created a community of friends. By joining our organization, you can form long-lasting friendships.

History

MACT/NY began in 1980 as Black and White Men Together. Initially, a group with this name formed in San Francisco. The idea was to create a consciousness-raising and support group for gay men involved in or interested in multiracial relationships.

Press releases, notices and ads were sent out in hopes of beginning such a group in New York City. There was an immediate response and obvious interest.

The philosophy of what was then BWMT/NY developed to encompass a wide variety of activities, from social events through consciousness-raising and personal growth to overt political action. Members were free to choose how much to get involved and as to what aspect of the group interested them.

One of BWMT/NY's most prominent early activities consisted of its Discrimination Documentation Project, a response created by our Political Action Committee to monitor cases of discrimination in gay establishments. Those bars or clubs which had discriminatory admissions or "carding" policies at the door were boycotted, which resulted in either financial settlements or the closing down of some establishments.

After five years of existence, we decided to change our name in order to make our chapter more inclusive of gay men of different racial and ethnic backgrounds. The group decided upon the name Men of All Colors Together because it serves as a reflection of the many diverse groups of people in New York City.

http://www.mactny.org/

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensign-charlie

So what is the solution? Fuck everyone you meet so you don't offend anyone by rejecting them?

There is a massive difference between saying "no asians/blacks", "whites only" etc etc (which IS sexual racism, and has been mostly agreed upon as a bad thing), and saying no to someone because you don't find them attractive. Even if you are one of the people who says "whites only" it doesn't mean you'll find ALL white guys attractive, so even someone who doesn't give a damn about their partner's race isn't going to find everyone of every race everywhere attractive. Where do you draw the line between rejection due to not being attracted to someone, and sexual racism?

If, say, a white guy rejects a black guy by saying "Sorry, I'm not attracted to you" and the black guy takes that as "I'm not into black guys", who is accountable for that feeling of racism and rejection? What is your proposed solution? Even if the rejection contains NO explicit reference or allusion to the persons race, some people will always take it that way because of the general racism in society - not just due to sexual racism. So what is the line, and what is the solution?

I don't believe Azul is saying just because you reject a person and that person is a of a different race, you're automatically a racist. He is referring to the predominance of racial preferencing (e.g. white only, blacks only, rice queens, potato queens etc...) and the excessive representation of caucasian men in gay culutre as being the most attractive, perfect, desirable etc... and white privilege.

How we counteract it is by awareness, through discussion on sexual racism, internalised racism and exotification. Also by the positive promotion of diverse representation of men in gay advertising and media. I mean Australia (and Canada for you) are both strong multicultural societies, so why isn't a diverse range of men portrayed regularly in a positive context without being tokenistic, stereotypical and a play on exoticification fantasy. Only when we get a realistic mix of representation without the latter crap in the gay media, then we know we are really getting somewhere in regards to acceptance and diversity.

Also sexual subcultures based on racial preferencing such as rice queens and potato queens etc... should be called for what they are racists and those who practice this form of racist behaviour should be challenged and shamed about their beliefs. Exactly how we approach people who demostrate other forms of racism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by azulmelb

That's a good question, isn't it?


So, let me ask another question then - shouldn't we as a part of the queer community address this issue, in search of a solution together?


Because we would have to ensure that everyone's rights are respected.


So in order to do that - is to have an honest and genuine conversation, discussion on the matter.


And that includes trying to understand what exactly is sexual racism; how does it exhibit itself; how does it harm people of color and what are the effects and impacts upon their lives and the community as well?.


It will also include deconstructing people's preference in choosing a sexual partner or romantic partner - could they be consciously or unconsciously racially prejudiced?


If so, how did this occur - nature (biological) or nurture (socialization)?


I think after asking the right questions and looking for the answers together, hopefully we can discover the real solution.

Or we could stop intellectualising the fuck out of this issue and just accept that we all have different preferences when it comes to whom we consider attractive, but just agree not to be hurtful when expressing these preferences.

@ensign charlie - but if you really want some sort of action plan, please download and refer to VicHealth's framework to reducing race-based discrimination here.

We can use this as a basic guideline on how to handle this matter.



http://www.vichealth.vic.gov.au/en/P...imination.aspx