I notice the ABC is heavily promoting tonights Q & A as a huge match-up between richard dawkins and george pell. I find that promotional angle quite amusing - a smart 12 year old could pick gapping holes in pell's religious beliefs, let alone richard dawkins. Its abit like china going to war against tonga - pretty lopsided

Go, Dawkins!

Well pell was actually alot more polished, practiced, and fiesty than i gave him credit for, but i spose you dont rise to the top of the catholic church in australia without having abit of killer instinct about you, but the reality is, his beliefs are based on blind faith, and at times it felt like he was trying to plug leaks on a sinking ship with toilet paper, in response to some of dawkins claims. Pell's main argument seemed to center around the notion that when religion is absent and athiesm is able to flourish, you get people like hitler and stalin (thats a theme alot of pells supporters were running with on #QandA on twitter also), so we are better off with religion. I severely doubt anyone learnt anything last night, regardless of the validity of any argument raised - it was basically two cheer-squads facing off agains each other, especially in the studio audience

pell did acknowledge that the adam and eve story was kind of metaphorical

Pell contradicted the Catholic Church's own teachings by saying gay people and atheists can go to heaven. He kept skirting around the subject and he was also the first to bring up Hitler which we all know is an automatic loss in any argument. Adam and Eve are apparently only a metaphor, but the body of Christ is actually his body and can't be a metaphor.

Dawkin's looked like he was tired and while he made a few good points, it was boring to watch. Tony Jones gave it to Pell a little.

P.S. If God created the universe, then who created God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark_

pell did acknowledge that the adam and eve story was kind of metaphorical

Indeed he did and his Eminence Dr Pell presented very well last night.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phazz

Pell contradicted the Catholic Church's own teachings by saying gay people and atheists can go to heaven. He kept skirting around the subject and he was also the first to bring up Hitler which we all know is an automatic loss in any argument. Adam and Eve are apparently only a metaphor, but the body of Christ is actually his body and can't be a metaphor.

Dawkin's looked like he was tired and while he made a few good points, it was boring to watch. Tony Jones gave it to Pell a little.

P.S. If God created the universe, then who created God?

Phazz have you read the Catechism of the Catholic church? I think you'd find His Eminence never contradicted the teachings of the church.

The comments http://www.theage.com.au/entertainme...410-1wlk9.html mostly say otherwise

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrAsh

Phazz have you read the Catechism of the Catholic church? I think you'd find His Eminence never contradicted the teachings of the church.

I've read the Bible at least once. It contradicts itself in many many places.

Pell said that his christians only pay attention to the new testament.

I wonder how many other christians hold to that view? I've couldn't find the answer to that on Wiki.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phazz

I've read the Bible at least once. It contradicts itself in many many places.

Please, contradictions is what christians do best, pell just happens to be the most capable in the land at these contradiction

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark_

pell did acknowledge that the adam and eve story was kind of metaphorical

The past 400 years has been a history of Christianity trimming away the teachings of the bible as society slowly evolves to realise that those teachings are ridiculous, implausible, and not consistsnt with a society that doesnt herd goats and impregnate and marry 13 year old girls - i look forward to ALOT more trimming to come

I watched and enjoyed the show a lot. But men spoke well but I naturally sided with Dawkins. It seemed like the audience was a good mix of people with those who supported both... though Dawkins seemed at odds with the audience at times - asking "Why is that funny?"

I tweeted (@samesame) my favourite quote of the night - Tony Jones asked: Is homosexuality part of God's natural order? Pell's reply: "Creation's messy. Oriental carpet makers always leave a little flaw in their carpet."

Charming! I'm proud to be one of nature's flaws.

Which just goes to show, that the bible was concocted and written by delusional individuals to suit their present society, with no input from "god". If the bible was the written word of god, the fucker would have made provisions for the fact that 2000 years later we would all have iphones and wouldnt believe stupid shit like a dude walking on water

I cannot believe Pell used the old Hitler/Stalin example to discredit athiesm. How naive. Stalin was a communist and Nazism is a form of facism. Athiesm is hardly a political ideology. The reason the Soviet Union and the Third Reich suppressed religion is because they didn't want any opposition. Just as theocratic governments won't hold elections. Religion can't be trusted to run government. Look at Afghanistan and Iran.

but cardinal is no pope. we must debate with the pope!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sesame

but cardinal is no pope. we must debate with the pope!

After pope john paul the second died, pell was at odds of 16 to 1 to become the new pope, he will be at alot shorter odds when ratzo goes

I thought God created us on his image?

I'm thinking it was largeley uneventuful compared to how fiesty the show has been at times, it was clear that Dawkins was lagged, and I felt it a bit unfair that he didn't get to respond to the cardinals opinions on homosexuality. However I did also notice that Tony Jones seem to almost be ripping into Pell at times with his questions.

One moment I just can't get out of my head....

Same Same Media Player

YouTube

I wonder if Pope Nazinger was there as well? >:]

Had Dawkins been allowed to respond...it might have been something like this...yeah watch the video and cringe at the stupidity of some people. I know I did.

Same Same Media Player

Richard Dawkins Versus Homophobic Christians - YouTube

I was there last night in the studio audience. I must admit both spoke extremely well, I did not see at as a battle or a versus each other. Credit to both Dawkins and Pell. Just remember for those who continuously slam 'the bible'. From a HISTORICAL perspective, a lot of freedoms we have today are because of the new testament, which we take for granted. Abolishment of slavery, treating every one equal, basic ten commandments. Jesus Christ himself saying women are supposed to be treated with the same equality as men. It is only men over the centuries that have used religion ('the bible') for their lust for power and control. Our entire western governments are based on a Judo-Christian form of government. Jesus Christ was a revolutionist for his time. The sad thing is even still today from a social science point of view, people STILL do not follow those examples of peace, acceptance/tolerance, respect, charity, heck even love for their fellow human being or living creature on this planet. What is so obvious, you do not have to be a person of faith to act on those morals. It is just human instinct.

For that question of Gods existence, I personally think the only way that we are going to find out more about the origins of our universe is through practical exploration through our galaxy and star systems. I know it is far fetched and our technology and resources limit us, although as we advance as a civilisation we would eventually have those capabilities.

As gay men lets be selfless and for once not let it always be about our sexuality. Remember our sexuality does not dictate our personality just a part of us. What we do is a sexual act, yes we are physically, chemically, emotionally (well for Sydney gay guys, I do not know about emotionally lol) attracted to the same sex we cannot help that, same goes for a heterosexual male being attracted to a female. EVERY single human being has control over their actions, our choices and free will. I think that is what the cardinal was trying to portray.

The Professor and his scientific logic is extremely well respected. Hats down to him. Top bloke that is for sure. If god does exist we definitely know god has a sense of humour for creating men like Dawkins and Pell.

It would not surprise me that after the show the professor and the cardinal are actually close friends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Akersten

I watched and enjoyed the show a lot. But men spoke well but I naturally sided with Dawkins. It seemed like the audience was a good mix of people with those who supported both... though Dawkins seemed at odds with the audience at times - asking "Why is that funny?"

I tweeted (@samesame) my favourite quote of the night - Tony Jones asked: Is homosexuality part of God's natural order? Pell's reply: "Creation's messy. Oriental carpet makers always leave a little flaw in their carpet."

Charming! I'm proud to be one of nature's flaws.

I interpreted His Eminence Dr Pell was referring to all of creation as having imperfections. Not just homosexuals.

there is spirituality and science that supports each other why weren't they represented? only two very extreme opposites

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazzymikey

there is spirituality and science that supports each other why weren't they represented? only two very extreme opposites

Two reasons,

1. It was intentionally set up this way by the ABC in order to draw a larger TV and online audience.

2. It's Q&A, they always like to challenge opinions and have often had members whom have been exact opposites for this reason.

And I won't comment on the science and spirituality that supports each other.

We live in a time where divisiveness appears across the board, whether it is a trivial issue or not. Mac vs PC, Android vs iOS, Religion vs Atheism, Holden vs Ford, AFL vs NRL, LGBTIQ vs Straight, Labor vs Liberal, etc. This is just pandering to such divisiveness.

I think both religion and atheism are both over represented in the media.

Actually I don't think Atheists get that much representation in the media. It's not like we have a public holiday or major event where the media focuses on us. Not that I mind though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NATEE

Credit to both Dawkins and Pell. Just remember for those who continuously slam 'the bible'. From a HISTORICAL perspective, a lot of freedoms we have today are because of the new testament, which we take for granted. Abolishment of slavery, treating every one equal, basic ten commandments. Jesus Christ himself saying women are supposed to be treated with the same equality as men. It is only men over the centuries that have used religion ('the bible') for their lust for power and control. Our entire western governments are based on a Judo-Christian form of government. Jesus Christ was a revolutionist for his time. The sad thing is even still today from a social science point of view, people STILL do not follow those examples of peace, acceptance/tolerance, respect, charity, heck even love for their fellow human being or living creature on this planet. What is so obvious, you do not have to be a person of faith to act on those morals. It is just human instinct.

Yes, and those last two sentences highlighted render religion and the ten commandments obsolete in having any involvement/influence in our modern legislative system/form of government

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marko

I'm thinking it was largeley uneventuful compared to how fiesty the show has been at times, it was clear that Dawkins was lagged, and I felt it a bit unfair that he didn't get to respond to the cardinals opinions on homosexuality. However I did also notice that Tony Jones seem to almost be ripping into Pell at times with his questions.

One moment I just can't get out of my head....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HVYHspmFd4

I wonder if Pope Nazinger was there as well? >:]

hahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa

farking classic

I would love to see someone like ekhart tolle in a discussion like this