Interviewing some new potential flatmates of different backgrounds last night, I realised I knew nothing about what made religions other than catholicism (and christianity in general) against Homosexuality.

I am pretty sure Islam and Judaism are essentially based on the old testatment. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So their objections would be similar???

Whilst not a religion, it would appear that the dominant socialist countries (Russia and China) are also against gays. Is this just a phobia or rooted in something deeper, Russia I would assume Chrisitianity linked. China I don't understand why? Is this Russian influence?

Anyway for some reason I have developed a desire to understand what other cultures/religions may have against homosexuality, so that I can prepare re-buttals (read "f#$k you, you f$%king c&%t") with some knowldge! Can anyone help?

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewc

Interviewing some new potential flatmates of different backgrounds last night, I realised I knew nothing about what made religions other than catholicism (and christianity in general) against Homosexuality.

I am pretty sure Islam and Judaism are essentially based on the old testatment. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So their objections would be similar???

Whilst not a religion, it would appear that the dominant socialist countries (Russia and China) are also against gays. Is this just a phobia or rooted in something deeper, Russia I would assume Chrisitianity linked. China I don't understand why? Is this Russian influence?

Anyway for some reason I have developed a desire to understand what other cultures/religions may have against homosexuality, so that I can prepare re-buttals (read "f#$k you, you f$%king c&%t") with some knowldge! Can anyone help?

Yes Islam and Judaism are based on the old testament. Well to be precise Islam and Christianity are based on the Torah after all it came first. Islam went its own way and so did Christianity collectivly they are called the Abrahamic religions.

However the case of China is a little different and there is a strong cultural emphasis on the family. The view there is Gay people can't have kids so can't have family, which is viewed as the central part of Chinese culture.

In many instances different cultural influences are at play in opposition to homosexuality and it may not neccessarily be religion that is the main driver (although it often is).

Largely a lot of the negative opinion is the perception that being Gay is a "choice", and that a Gay person has made a bad/immoral/un-natural choice. When a person understands that this is not the case (there is no choice, people are born that way) their bias tends to disapear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eltharion

However the case of China is a little different and there is a strong cultural emphasis on the family. The view there is Gay people can't have kids so can't have family, which is viewed as the central part of Chinese culture.

Ahh yes collectivism. You would think that with the current one-child policy this attitude would be changing within China. I read sometime ago that the gay population of China was increasing due to the large number of males (with female children being "discarded" either before or after birth) compared to females, hence less opportunity for marriage. I would suppose that this would make it easier for gay chinese men to not get forced into a marriage...???

Interesting that in Thailand, that the more compassionate views of Buddhism have affected society's view on homosexuality more so than the collectivist construct of its culture.

The prohibition of homosexuality in Judaism is based on the physical act of homosexual *sex*; not the actual nature of being a homosexual in your heart; and this prohibition only pertains to gay men; not female homosexuality. Lesbianism under Torah Law is not acknowledged.
The verses that relate to homosexuality in the Torah can be found in Leviticus.
Interestingly, I have debated with my Rabbi that even homosexual acts are not against Torah; since the verse described uses the word 'lay' and not *fornication* - there is a distinct difference. To 'lay' with someone, under my interpretation, means to rest, to physically lay beside someone; there is no sex act described. It could be said that the prohibition described relates to two men sleeping in the same quarters together in the same room. The *sin* then becomes an issue of inference; not action. How? Well, it could be said that the sin is about APPEARING to be homosexual, not homosexual acts. One of the Ten Commandments is 'thou shalt not bear false witness'. Surmising one's sexuality based on witnessing two men laying down beside each other; then accusing them of having *gay* sex is BEARING FALSE WITNESS which breaks Torah Law. My point being that Leviticus, in describing the sin of two men 'laying' with each other is invalid when describing homosexual acts. In Judaism you can not argue Jewish Law if the idea expressed goes against the Ten Commandments. If a Jew witnesses two adult men in bed together there is only the INFERENCE of homosexual acts having taken place; no witness of said act. No righteous Jew can say he saw something without having actually witnessing it first-hand.

Islam is based on the Q'uran; not the Mishnah (Jerusalem Bible or Torah).
Mohommed founded Islam; there is no mention of Mohommed in Torah.

I suspect China & Russia are homophobic because of the Patriarchal system of dynastic investature (the eldest son inherits land, money, business).
If the eldest son is gay, he most likely won't have kids to pass on his wealth.
If no-one is present in the next generation to pass on wealth; the family name dies out.

In Judaism G-d is without form, is perfect; all-seeing & all-knowing.

He made you perfectly gay.
He sees you are gay.
He knows you are gay.

This is where it gets tricky.
Under Orthodox Judaism it is a *mitzvah* (a good deed; following a Commandment) to *rise above* the urge to have homosexual sex if you're gay. To abstain from gay sex shows G-d you put your service to Torah Law above serving your physical self. In this instance G-d favours this sacrifice of the gay mans' sexual life to live a chaste life. G-d rewards such a sacrifice.
So gay sex is a sin: being gay is not. Being gay & NOT having sex is a mitzvah; G-d holds you in high esteem for upholding Torah Law.

Here is where it gets even trickier.
It is a mitzvah to get married. One of the most important mitzvot to carry out.
Under Shabbat Law a husband may have sex with his wife.
A gay man who can't get married to a man can not have sex not because he is gay but because he hasn't committed the mitzvah of marriage.
If a gay man under Reform Judaism gets married he may have gay sex because he is married; so the issue of homosexual act being a sin is cancelled out.
Does my head in...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asherbella

A gay man who can't get married to a man can not have sex not because he is gay but because he hasn't committed the mitzvah of marriage.
If a gay man under Reform Judaism gets married he may have gay sex because he is married; so the issue of homosexual act being a sin is cancelled out.
Does my head in...

Ok this hurt my brain. Is same-sex marriage ok under Judaism? Or only under Reform Judaism (is this a form of contemporary Judaism???)

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewc

Ok this hurt my brain. Is same-sex marriage ok under Judaism? Or only under Reform Judaism (is this a form of contemporary Judaism???)

Only under Reform Judaism.
But Orthodox Jews do not recognise Reform Judaism.
But Reform Jews are no less Jewish for being Reform.
Orthodoxy recognises this.
Confused?
Try being a gay Jew.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asherbella

Islam is based on the Q'uran; not the Mishnah (Jerusalem Bible or Torah).
Mohommed founded Islam; there is no mention of Mohommed in Torah.

The Muslims however do acknowledge the prophets and figureheads of the "Old Testament": Mussa, Daoud, Ibrahim, Yacoub, Salman...etc

Of course those names are the Arabic for Moses, David, Abraham, Jacob and Solomon...etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asherbella

In Judaism G-d is without form, is perfect; all-seeing & all-knowing.

He made you perfectly gay.
He sees you are gay.
He knows you are gay.

This is where it gets tricky.
Under Orthodox Judaism it is a *mitzvah* (a good deed; following a Commandment) to *rise above* the urge to have homosexual sex if you're gay. To abstain from gay sex shows G-d you put your service to Torah Law above serving your physical self. In this instance G-d favours this sacrifice of the gay mans' sexual life to live a chaste life. G-d rewards such a sacrifice.
So gay sex is a sin: being gay is not. Being gay & NOT having sex is a mitzvah; G-d holds you in high esteem for upholding Torah Law.

Then Jewish law simply advocates some sort of asexual existence...therfore somehow forcing gay men into not identifying and expressing themselves as sexual beings like all other humans. This is inherently wrong. Could you personally go without sex or intimacy for the rest of your life?

You are also comparing two interpretations of Judaism...ultra-orthodox (Addas and possibly the Hassidim) and the Reform (TBI and others).

Of course there would be more acceptance from Reformists than there would be from the ultra-orthodox...then again those two groups dislike eachother immensly, they just dont kill eachother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rudeboy86

Then Jewish law simply advocates some sort of asexual existence...therfore somehow forcing gay men into not identifying and expressing themselves as sexual beings like all other humans. This is inherently wrong. Could you personally go without sex or intimacy for the rest of your life?

You are exactly 100% correct.
Which goes against the nature of Ha Shem, one could argue (denying true self).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asherbella

Islam is based on the Q'uran; not the Mishnah (Jerusalem Bible or Torah).
Mohommed founded Islam; there is no mention of Mohommed in Torah.

Yes true however the muslims do refer to old testament figures (and their stories)which are also in the Torah (as the old testament is based on the Torah). While many people would hate to admit it Islam does have it roots in the same beliefs as Judaism. In effect Islam Christianity and Judaism are like religous cousins, all sharing a common heritage. There is however no arguement from me that they have each gone in different directions over time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asherbella

Try being a gay Jew.

It is not a hell of a lot of fun for the most part...

Me being the non-believing person that I am couldn't care less about the supposed bullshit from what I deem to be a non-existent divine entity and the such. I do participate in the cultural practices but my family only does this so that both sides of the family can be together and share a meal and then carry on a very very special Jewish custom...argument!

Quote:

Originally Posted by rudeboy86

It is not a hell of a lot of fun for the most part...

Me being the non-believing person that I am couldn't care less about the supposed bullshit from what I deem to be a non-existent divine entity and the such. I do participate in the cultural practices but my family only does this so that both sides of the family can be together and share a meal and then carry on a very very special Jewish custom...argument!

I hear you, totally.

I think it has something to do with not being able to procreate.

Like, if everyone was gay and only slept with people of the same sex, who would make the babies?

Quote:

Originally Posted by nu_archer

I think it has something to do with not being able to procreate.

Like, if everyone was gay and only slept with people of the same sex, who would make the babies?

No. It's not a matter of not being able to procreate: it is a matter of spilling your *seed* in a vagina.
Gay men are perfectly fertile.
They just don't dump their load in a vagina.
Technically, under Leviticus, it is a sin to 'spill your seed on the earth'.
IT IS NOT A SIN FOR A MAN TO SPILL HIS SEED IN ANOTHER MANS ANUS OR TO CUM ON ANOTHER MANS BODY. It's only a sin to waste sperm by cumming on the floor.
So even heterosexual men can commit this sin; not just gay men.
What MAN; either gay, straight or otherwise, hasn't jerked off & cum in the shower (ie spilling their seed on the earth)?

Same Same Media Player

You're a Yankee - YouTube

Oh Ash you have a golden girls clip for everything, loves it!

I don't think religion has anything against us at all.

This is what shits me about religion - the main guideline for ANY religion (other than the obvious) is to basically be a good fucking person.

Then the two other entities, the bible, and the church, fuck it up. The books these faiths are based on are in the most part written by many different people and in most cases a lifetime(s) after these 'prophets' existed. I can't speak wholeheartedly about other religions - only heresay from peers - however in Christianity, I don't necessarily doubt that Jesus might have been a very mother-teresa-like figure, and 'apparently' the dude loved everyone. prostitutes/tax collectors/theives - had brunch with them all and loved em. so why then does this book and popey come along and now all of a sudden being a fag is wrong wrong wrong.

it's all smoke and mirrors - why people want to be a part of these communities that hate them i'll never know. haha *pictures people banging on the door of a church "let me iiiiin"*

i say don't stress yourself. they just aren't that into you. be cutting edge and start ur own religion in yourself and be the best person you can be. i'm sure if you do that you'll be fine - it's the basis behind all the religions anyway. the books and the church are man. man wrote the books. man also wrote the internet. pffft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eltharion

Oh Ash you have a golden girls clip for everything, loves it!

Give me a thread & I'll give you a Golden Girls clip!

Quote:

Originally Posted by nu_archer

who would make the babies?

Lesbians

Same Same Media Player

Sofia Dies A Little... - YouTube

Quote:

Originally Posted by naughtylion

I don't think religion has anything against us at all.


i say don't stress yourself. they just aren't that into you. be cutting edge and start ur own religion in yourself and be the best person you can be. i'm sure if you do that you'll be fine - it's the basis behind all the religions anyway. the books and the church are man. man wrote the books. man also wrote the internet. pffft.

I'm not stressed about it at all. I understand well that all religions are effectively based on peace and love. But religions as any organisation or movement, are what the people that believe in them do and say.

I just want to be informed, I don't know very much about Judaism or Islam or the Shinto and Taoist religions of Asia. When travelling or meeting people of other cultures, its good to know what their potential bias is going to be based on, religion or societal norms. The latter generally being the easier one to counter.

Knowledge is understanding!

as a devout atheist I would be giving religion to much credibility by not saying HOGWASH. Why do people (religious and non religious) spend so much time philosophising over theist stupidity. To take it seriously is like hope the teli tubbies will land on earth and make give us all pet fuzzy rainbows sometime soon. IMO a world without religion would be a much nicer place.

I treat christianity and most other religions with complete comptempt. 2 way street as it were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by datkindagal

as a devout atheist I would be giving religion to much credibility by not saying HOGWASH. Why do people (religious and non religious) spend so much time philosophising over theist stupidity. To take it seriously is like hope the teli tubbies will land on earth and make give us all pet fuzzy rainbows sometime soon. IMO a world without religion would be a much nicer place.

I intimately immerse myself in Judaic theology for three reasons:
(a) I love debating Jewish Law, giving possible new insights on old beliefs
(b) I like being part of over 3,000 years of tradition
(c) I find faith fascinating on an emotional level & how that effects my day-to-day life

My mum was Jewish, my father was a Christian, so I'm familiar with Christianity; I love educating fundy Christians on why Jews DON'T believe in Jesus. I surprise them, frustrate them, puzzle them & annoy them with Jewish Law...love it!

knowledge is a weapon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by datkindagal

knowledge is a weapon.

Only in possible application; not in nature.
(That's a Kabbalah philosophy)