Gay Beat Gets Nod From Police

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In one of the boldest, most refreshing approaches we’ve seen from authorities in quite a while, councillors in the Netherlands have just legalised a gay beat in one of Amsterdam’s best known parks.

The rose garden at Amsterdam’s Vondelpark has been a notorious cruising ground for years, but instead of outlawing what goes on there, authorities have decided to impose a set of rules instead.

“Why should we try to impose something that is actually impossible to impose, which also causes little bother for others and for a certain group actually means much pleasure?”, Alderman Paul van Grieken told The Telegraph.

“Condoms must always be cleared away, it must never take place in the neighbourhood of children’s playgrounds and the sex must be restricted to the evening and night-time,” he added. He also stressed the importance of tolerance, hoping that violence wouldn’t be perpetrated against the men who visited there.

Even the Dutch police are onboard, and they’re urging all the other Dutch parks to follow suit. Funnily enough, now it’s legal to have beat sex in the park, but you can’t let your dog off the leash.

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andrew m potts

andrew m potts said on the 14th Sep, 2009

"One thing that I'm personally curious about is, over time, how many straight couples will use the area for shits and giggles."

Yeah and when they do gay beat users will scream about them taking over "their" area.

"In theory this seems like everything else we move to regulate rather than criminalise."

If beat users wanted to club together to set up an open air sex club similar to a nudist colony, I'd be 100 percent behind them but they're monopolising PUBLIC spaces that belong to everyone and their behaviour often results in councils permanently locking off public toilets so nobody gets to use them.

Many beat users are attracted by the risque and transgressive nature of beat use- regulate it and sanitise it and they'll just go someplace else more risky. If only beats were just in parks and beaches- have a look at some of the beat user websites online and you'll see they're in toilets inoffice blocks and shopping centres and are active during the middle of the day when customers are around. It was only a year or two ago that one of the big CBD department stores in Sydney had to close their toilets because of all the beat users ducking in their on their lunch break despite the fact that there were legal SOPVs ten minutes walk away.

I live near a beat, and was nearly stabbed in the face with a glass bottle by a mugger who'd come out of the park, so excuse me if I'm REALLY KEEN on police patrolling them. If cops aren't there, who are you going to call when someone tries to bash you? Beat users should never be named in the press, or treated as sexual predators, but so long as police act within the law, I'm quite happy for them to take beat users details and move them along, and yes, if they keep catching the same individual at the same beat, charge them and fine them, or direct them to counselling.

As a journalist I've been following this story in the press for some months now and what the samesame article didnt mention is that the park in question is in the middle of a densely populated suburb with a large muslim migrant community. Gangs of muslim youths have been beating up Dutch gays for years, with violence escalating year by year, and this is only going to inflame things further.

hazyinseptember

hazyinseptember said on the 15th Sep, 2009


For hundreds of years gay men were forced by circumstance to use beats to avoid state persecution because having live-in or long term relationships made them more likely to come to the attention of authorities.

gay men are a small number of the users of beats.. a large number of the men would identify as straight or bi.. and who cannot have 'live in or long term relationships' for various reason, hence why beats still exist.

straight people also have sex in public places, but because that is mostly accepted or had a blind eye turned to it, its not an issue. Lovers lanes have also been identified in most western cultures.

you talked above about shopping centers being the locations of beats.. yet their are numerous cases of hetrosexual sex occuring in toilets in nightclubs, cars and alleyways..

but because of various reasons, gay beat sex has had to develop its own codes and rules, becoming a part of gay culture. Sorry that you don't like it, but that's the way it is..

They were forced to hide their true identities just as European Jews were forced to hide their identities and live surreptitious lives to survive during the many periods of persecution they faced.

Today both groups have their freedom and can live life in the sun.Using beats today is anachronistic as a Jewish family hiding in an attic in 2009.

'having sex in a public place' and 'hiding in an attic fearing for your life because of a holocaust' is a very, very slim comparison to draw...

andrew m potts

andrew m potts said on the 15th Sep, 2009

"gay men are a small number of the users of beats.. a large number of the men would identify as straight or bi.. and who cannot have 'live in or long term relationships' for various reason, hence why beats still exist."

Bullshit. I personally know beat users who are openly gay and completely comfortable with their sexuality. If most beat users weren't gay, then why is there a beat two blocks from my house in the middle of the most gay accepting suburb in Australia? If you look at beat user websites there are less and less beats the further you travel away from our gay ghettos. Every time I write a column or a letter to the editor criticising beat use, its openly gay men who write back in response.

"straight people also have sex in public places"

Yes they do, but they bring a partner with them and choose their locations randomly, they don't lurk around in the dark all night looking for someone to score with and take over particular parks in a very organised fashion.

"you talked above about shopping centers being the locations of beats.. yet their are numerous cases of hetrosexual sex occuring in toilets in nightclubs, cars and alleyways.."

There is a huge difference between someone having sex in a nightclub (an 18+ environment) or a car or alleyway at night, and loitering around in a shopping centre toilet at 2 o'clock in the afternoon waiting for someone to blow you when there are kids and families around.

"Lovers lanes have also been identified in most western cultures."

Yes and just like beats were 20 plus years ago, in the past they were justified- when my dad was in his 20's hotels would refuse to rent rooms to unmarried couples. If you're straight and going to a lovers lane today you're probably a loser who still lives with his parents.

"'having sex in a public place' and 'hiding in an attic fearing for your life because of a holocaust' is a very, very slim comparison to draw..."

I wasn't comparing the sex, I was comparing the need to hide ones identity and live a lie.

hazyinseptember

hazyinseptember said on the 15th Sep, 2009


Bullshit. I personally know beat users who are openly gay and completely comfortable with their sexuality. If most beat users weren't gay, then why is there a beat two blocks from my house in the middle of the most gay accepting suburb in Australia? If you look at beat user websites there are less and less beats the further you travel away from our gay ghettos. Every time I write a column or a letter to the editor criticising beat use, its openly gay men who write back in response.

wow.. you know people.. awesome!!

when you have met all the beat users in the world .. let me know ok?

have you even been to a beat? yet you know all about the users of one? :rolleyes:


Yes they do, but they bring a partner with them and choose their locations randomly, they don't lurk around in the dark all night looking for someone to score with and take over particular parks in a very organised fashion.

lol.. oh look out!!.. its the gay beat army taking over all the park.. ?

so its worse than straight people having sex because its organised?



but is there a huge difference between that and a park in the middle of the night, a deserted beach or under a bridge where, frankly, no one else would be anyway?

see these are also beats.. and yes i don't think that hanging around a shopping center toilet is at all acceptable..

But just because i don't like cheese sandwiches does not mean all sandwiches are bad..

"Lovers lanes have also been identified in most western cultures."

Yes and just like beats were 20 plus years ago, in the past they were justified- when my dad was in his 20's hotels would refuse to rent rooms to unmarried couples. If you're straight and going to a lovers lane today you're probably a loser who still lives with his parents.

I wasn't comparing the sex, I was comparing the need to hide ones identity and live a lie.

wow your so judgemental.. everyone is different you know, just because it doesnt fit into your little box of thought does not make it wrong.

Lovers lanes still exist.. the beat here in brisbane on Mt Gravatt was pushed out, due to a large number of straight couples and hoons taking the area over...

lol.. so really this is all about you having an issue with men who don't identify as gay?

Flaneur

Flaneur said on the 15th Sep, 2009

"One thing that I'm personally curious about is, over time, how many straight couples will use the area for shits and giggles."

Yeah and when they do gay beat users will scream about them taking over "their" area.
And? Who cares if they do scream?

It's not monopolising a public space if the government sanctions public sex in the area ... which they did in this instance. Unless you want to argue that any legally sanctioned activity counts as monopolisation if you don't like it?

Where is more risky and 'transgressive'? Think about it. Are they going to have sex on highways? On the top of ferries and trains?
"beats have been a part of gay culture for a very very long time"

And Jews were forced to hide in basements and attics during WWII but you wouldn't catch them celebrating that.
You win the thread, clearly.

Could you make anymore of an appeal to emotion? Seriously? That doesn't make sense at all. The attics were in response to that single period, the Nazi supremacy of WW2, and it was the general act of hiding (not attics, otherwise you'd be arguing that every part of the home was a Jewish cultural artifact - are the bed, the ceiling, the floor, the walls, the sewers all things you'd argue as Jewish?).

Queers have, by virtue of our invisibility, our capacity to 'pass' by staying in the closet, an entirely different cultural set up which is evident in the phrases we coined (Polari), the little signals (hanky code), the beats for 'cottaging' etc. over centuries. That's nothing like the Jewish experience since our identities were and are evident by our actions (including beats) whereas their identity was in their blood, their face, their parents, their very life ... that's what they hid.

Heck, Hitler hated queers too but our practices of hiding were maintained in the subjugated areas. It's one of our cultural hand me downs that just keeps going. That's one of the reasons (apart from the Jew's, I guess, ownership of the event) that we don't look at our dealings with that regime as a major part of our cultural history rather than just another example.

Ugh. It amazes me that this same sentiment against exclusion can be so exclusive. 'Gay' scene? And only to same-sex attracted persons? The acronym does contain more than just a 'G' for a reason, you know.

andrew m potts

andrew m potts said on the 15th Sep, 2009

"Heck, Hitler hated queers too but our practices of hiding were maintained in the subjugated areas."

Rather than "hiding" 1920's Germany had the most vibrant and visible gay scene the world had ever seen. There were more gay bars in Berlin in 1930 than there have ever been in the whole of Australia.

Magnus Hirschfeld's Institute for Sexual Research in Berlin was the heart of a highly visible continent wide gay rights movement, the Scientific Humanitarian Committee, which had held several world congresses by the time the Nazis came to power and even produced a gay rights feature film. Thousands of people visited the Institute every year- including school groups.

The Nazis were able to round up hundreds of thousands of gay men when they came to power- a pretty concerted effort considering that gay men are only about five percent of the male population and cannot be tracked by family names or circumcision. Of the 54,000 gay men known to have been murdered by the Nazis for their sexuality, only 7,000 even made it as far as the concentration camps to die, the rest being summarily executed or worked to death in Nazi building projects.

In order to identify gay men for extermination the Nazis blackmailed the owners of gay bars into handing over lists of their customers. From one Hamburg department store alone, 40 gay employees were dragged into vans and sent to concentration camps.

When the concentration camps were opened, those who survived the war were sent back into the regular German prison system to rot while other groups were granted freedom.

If the treatment of gay men under the Nazis doesn't form a major part of your gay cultural history you should probably read more.

Flaneur

Flaneur said on the 16th Sep, 2009

"Heck, Hitler hated queers too but our practices of hiding were maintained in the subjugated areas."

Rather than "hiding" 1920's Germany had the most vibrant and visible gay scene the world had ever seen. There were more gay bars in Berlin in 1930 than there have ever been in the whole of Australia.

Magnus Hirschfeld's Institute for Sexual Research in Berlin was the heart of a highly visible continent wide gay rights movement, the Scientific Humanitarian Committee, which had held several world congresses by the time the Nazis came to power and even produced a gay rights feature film. Thousands of people visited the Institute every year- including school groups.

The Nazis were able to round up hundreds of thousands of gay men when they came to power- a pretty concerted effort considering that gay men are only about five percent of the male population and cannot be tracked by family names or circumcision. Of the 54,000 gay men known to have been murdered by the Nazis for their sexuality, only 7,000 even made it as far as the concentration camps to die, the rest being summarily executed or worked to death in Nazi building projects.

In order to identify gay men for extermination the Nazis blackmailed the owners of gay bars into handing over lists of their customers. From one Hamburg department store alone, 40 gay employees were dragged into vans and sent to concentration camps.

When the concentration camps were opened, those who survived the war were sent back into the regular German prison system to rot while other groups were granted freedom.

If the treatment of gay men under the Nazis doesn't form a major part of your gay cultural history you should probably read more.

... and you completely missed the point. I know about how Nazis treated queers (which extended outside Germany and the Berlin scene, btw, which was also not quite the queer utopia you imply), one of the black moments in our family was when my Oma's mother dobbed in my great uncle, who was (allegedly) gay. It's something that completely fractured them, back in the day, my Oma harboured Jews and sold on the black market yet her mother threw her brother to the Nazis. That's my family's history and because of my family's views on Nazism I was raised up to essentially be bigoted towards Germans so for me, as a person, it's always been an important thing, especially given my own sexuality.

The point you missed, by trying to target it at me was that it not a huge part of our cultural identity as a whole. Like it or not, the practices of hiding which we'd been practicing for yonks were a huge factor, especially outside Berlin proper, and had been going on before, during and after the WW. It's just not the same situation for us as the Jews, which is something we have to acknowledge if we're going to have any respect for what happened to them and for who we are and have been.

tweety

tweety said on the 16th Sep, 2009

It boils down to visibility.
Gay men at beats are visible.
You see them loitering.
Public spaces. Jerking off at urinals, closing bathroom doors after some guy has followed you in, two sets of feet shuffling about the cubicles making muffled noises of sucking, rubbing, clumsy attempts of changing positions while getting off....
A basement is not a public space, though....

you forgot to describe what happens outside those toilet doors when all the shuffling and sucking etc is going on inside (had the pleasure of witnessing all of this just outside paris, at a rest area on the highway): the disgust on the faces of little children (trying to play on the rubber surface of the outside playground at the rest area) when they notice a human pile of shit on the rubber surface with dirty toilet paper stuck onto it, the wondering eyes of little children ( waiting outside the toilets with their dad) not understanding what is going on inside that toilet and probably wondering what the hell those noises are and then the eyes nearly popping out when they see two guys coming out of one toilet and the father being very embarrassed coz he knows he'll have to invent a story.

for me it's very simple but i think men see it differently: when women have to go to the loo, they have to look for a toilet coz squatting's not really widely accepted; lots of men tend to not bother and pee wherever..even someone's porch will do...
so to be fair to women who have to look for a toilet when they have to pee, i wouldn't mind peeps going home when they feel the urge to make love or fuck or whatever it is they feel like doing, if only to avoid situations like i just described here.

simply out of respect for your fellow human being?

hazyinseptember

hazyinseptember said on the 17th Sep, 2009

you forgot to describe what happens outside those toilet doors when all the shuffling and sucking etc is going on inside (had the pleasure of witnessing all of this just outside paris, at a rest area on the highway): the disgust on the faces of little children (trying to play on the rubber surface of the outside playground at the rest area) when they notice a human pile of shit on the rubber surface with dirty toilet paper stuck onto it, the wondering eyes of little children ( waiting outside the toilets with their dad) not understanding what is going on inside that toilet and probably wondering what the hell those noises are and then the eyes nearly popping out when they see two guys coming out of one toilet and the father being very embarrassed coz he knows he'll have to invent a story.

for me it's very simple but i think men see it differently: when women have to go to the loo, they have to look for a toilet coz squatting's not really widely accepted; lots of men tend to not bother and pee wherever..even someone's porch will do...

people can be pigs... no argument there!!! and its usually worse when they are anon...

but public toilets that are not beats can still be feral.. so i don't think you can blame the goings on for the state of the area.. the toilets at my old work were enough, you would constantly see shit smeared on the walls or picking their nose and wiping it... ( one time i walked i to a cubical covered in blood.. i think whoever had used it had burst a hemoroid or something, it was EVERYWHERE )

i agree 100% that areas where people and children frequent are totally not acceptable... they used to be in the areas that no one else would frequent ( parks at night, dunes in the beach, isolated toilet blocks ) not busy areas where it is easy to get caught..

i wonder why this shift has occurred?

tweety

tweety said on the 17th Sep, 2009

people can be pigs... no argument there!!! and its usually worse when they are anon...

but public toilets that are not beats can still be feral.. so i don't think you can blame the goings on for the state of the area.. the toilets at my old work were enough, you would constantly see shit smeared on the walls or picking their nose and wiping it... ( one time i walked i to a cubical covered in blood.. i think whoever had used it had burst a hemoroid or something, it was EVERYWHERE )

i agree 100% that areas where people and children frequent are totally not acceptable... they used to be in the areas that no one else would frequent ( parks at night, dunes in the beach, isolated toilet blocks ) not busy areas where it is easy to get caught..

i wonder why this shift has occurred?

we have 'm too: the nose pickings' works of art on the toilet walls!! who are those ppl?????? and bloody hell, if you have an accident on the loo, clean up after yourself coz it's so disrespectful towards the other users!!! and the poor man or lady that has to clean those toilets at night!

well the shit+toilet paper lying on the playground area was definitely from someone getting ready for some action.....sad though coz the toilets were just 10m away....

for me, it's all about respect for others. i don't think it's a good idea to become more and more accepting of stuff that wasn't widely accepted before. well not of all things anyway. it's not right that rest areas are flooded with ppl looking for sex in broad daylight as if there was no one else around!